Posted on 10/31/2002 2:46:58 PM PST by Wrigley
I have been justified by Christ..
So you will enter heaven exactly the way you are? You will never be better? You will never be actually perfect, free from sin and the desire to sin?
SD
I am not surprised you do not understand..
When one refuses to answer questions, nor talk lucidly, no it isn't.
Dave the potter MAKES the clay vessel..HE makes it perfectly for HIS uses..it is fired to harden the already perfect vessel..if it was not perfect it would be thrown out
I think you have a different conception of "perfect" than normal people. An unfired pot may indeed be "perfect," without flaw. But it is not "perfect," as in suitable for use. It is not perfect as in having completed all the steps needed.
You may wish to eat off of unfired pottery, imagining it to be perfect. I realize that pottery must be fired to be truly perfect.
So your attempted analogy to purgatory is weak and not applicable (remember you said that it was fired to get rid of ther "imperfections?..if you want I will go find that post)
The point is that clay needs to be fired before it is complete. And in that process the extra water can indeed be considered a "waste" product or an "imperfection."
See? Where did I say that the pot fires itself? In fact I asked you, now 4 times, how a pot being fired BY ITS MAKER is the work of the pot.
It is a "work" of man because it is something you do to be holy..you burn a bit .."sacrifice " a bit ... God will be very lucky to have you.
Why don't you answer the question? Five time now, I ask, and you do not answer.
I am not talking about God or Purgatory or anything. I am talking about an actual piece of clay, an actual fire and an actual maker.
Answer the basic question forst, then we can draw an analogy. You have assumed way to many facts that are not in play. Just answer the question, please.
SD
You confuse Justification with Santification..
Sanctify Them in the Truth; Thy Word is Truth." John 17:17
Who said I did? Quit putting words into other peoples' mouths.
What happened when Christ died on the cross? Why did he bother..you could do it all yourself?
Again, you run at the mouth without even pausing to know what the other is about. Typical.
You confuse Justification with Santification..
No, but I think you do. I never said anything about justification. I was trying to describe the purification of Purgatory as the final sanctification that we undergo before entering heaven.
It was you, and you only, that tried to make the conversation about man "working" his way to heaven or about anything else.
Have you ever considered listening to what others say, or answering their questions when they ask them?
Are you the best Terry you will ever be, or will you undergo a change sometime before you go to heaven?
Please answer the question. Don't rephrase it, or try to answer whatever point you think I am making. Just answer the question, please.
SD
I did answer. I said nothing about planning to be "better that the finished work of Christ." You ascribed such nonsense to my beliefs.
That's my answer. I don't plan on being better that the finished work fo Christ. OK?
What happened when Christ died on the cross? Why did he bother..you could do it all yourself
When did I say I "could so it all" myself? Why do you insist on placing these types of thoughts into your opponents minds? Woudl it be too hard to actually converse with me, instead of a caricature of what you mistakenly think Catholics are?
For the record, Jesus died on the Cross to win the favor of God, so that we all could gain salvation. It is the "how" of this salvation and "how" it is made real for us as individual persons that we are discussing.
You keep wanting to act like anyone who disagrees with you is "denying Christ." It's silly and insulting.
Now, are you the best Terry that there ever will be, or will you be changed in someway at some time?
SD
A pot being fired to perfection is a great analogy for purgatory. What's so good about it is how it simplifies the concept, and I'm sure I'll be able to use it some day. Thanks.
Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
For the record, Jesus died on the Cross to win the favor of God, so that we all could gain salvation. It is the "how" of this salvation and "how" it is made real for us as individual persons that we are discussing.
So you are saved by your own word not the work of Jesus ..at least you are consistant...could you give me some scripture on that
Could you please clarify this statement? I've never heard it stated like that before.
"Purgatory is not, as Tertullian thought, some kind of supra-worldly concentration camp where one is forced to undergo punishments in a more or less arbitrary fashion. Rather it is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God [i.e., capable of full unity with Christ and God] and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints. Simply to look at people with any degree of realism at all is to grasp the necessity of such a process. It does not replace grace by works, but allows the former to achieve its full victory precisely as grace. What actually saves is the full assent of faith. But in most of us, that basic option is buried under a great deal of wood, hay and straw. Only with difficulty can it peer out from behind the latticework of an egoism we are powerless to pull down with our own hands. Man is the recipient of the divine mercy, yet this does not exonerate him from the need to be transformed. Encounter with the Lord is this transformation. It is the fire that burns away our dross and re-forms us to be vessels of eternal joy." Thus according to Ratzinger's way of explaining the doctrine, as we are drawn out of this life and into direct union with Jesus, his fiery love and holiness burns away all the dross and impurities in our souls and makes us fit for life in the glorious, overwhelming light of God's presence and holiness.
The nub of our disagreement is the old argument of whether grace is irrestible to the point that his will is anniliated. But the "born again" types give lie to their claims to perfection by their behavior. The cleaning fire of conversion seems only to have full effect when they are dead and gone. In the meanwhile, their stumbling and falling causes all of us a great deal of grief.
Could you please clarify this statement? I've never heard it stated like that before.
No problem. What I meant is that man's sin creates an infinite debt, a chasm between man and God. In order to "balance the scales" or to "win God's favor" would require an infinite act to balance the infinte effect of sin.
This is, of course, not possible for man alone. So God Himself, the Infinite, comes down and makes the Infinite Sacrifice. The only Sacrifice which is acceptable to God, the only Sacrifice which can fill the gap, balance the scales, eliminate the chasm.
In faith in Christ, we then attach our humble pitiful lives to this One Perfect Sacrifice. God receives the sacrifice and grants us the grace required to restore our human nature to its original, unfallen state. The state where we are worthy to fellowship with God.
SD
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