Posted on 10/29/2002 5:18:29 AM PST by xzins
Well, I must say, you're true to form. The passages makes no mention that God dislikes the manner in which the people preformed the sacrifice. You simply dismiss the clear/literal words of the passage and insert your own ideas and meanings -how quaint!
"As far as your interpretation of Is 65, I simply don't buy your "tree" thing. It doesn't say what you are stretching it to say."
The 'tree' thing is not mine. I have not ever made any comment on it. (Do you wonder why I continue to suggest that you take reading comprehension classes!?!)
"It says they'll live a long time (like a tree); it doesn't say they'll live forever. "
Who are they that will not live forever???? God's people by chance???? So, in other words, you are saying that during this "millennial kingdom" (which magically appears out of no where in this text), God's people do not live forever????
"It's natural for me to assign it to the millennium rather than to the New Heavens and New Earth since we're clearly told in Revelation that there is no death there. "
Well of course it's natural for you to assign it to the millennial kingdom. Since when have you shown any regard whatsoever for what the infallible Word of God literally says?!?
The fact remains that Isaiah 65 has declared explicitly and specifically that this is a description, not of a millennial kingdom of which you simply declare by fiat to be in the text, but only and rightly of the New Heavens and the New Earth.
"No shame in that."
Adding words and concepts to what the infallible Word of God literally says most certainly is shameful!
You have no right to insert your millennial kingdom into this passage. You do have the obligation to submit your preconcieved understandings to the clear teachings and declarations of what the infallible Word of God literally says!
Jean
Do you care to back up your assertion??
In otherwords, the only amil 'camp' I know of is the historist. I would be in that 'camp'.
Jean
Of course, this is not an answer to the question I asked.
I did not ask "who will populate the millennium in natural bodies".
I asked you who the ~countless~ number of persons in Rev 7 were?
Jean
Since Christ told us that tribulation and persecution would always follow the church and since Rev 7 describes those coming out of the Great Tribulation as being 'countless' and as being from believers from ~every~ tribe, tounge, language and people (apparently including Jews), I must conclude that the Great Tribulation is from the time of Christ's resurrection until his return.
Jean
When he comes again, we will need no memorial -Lord's Supper ~OR~ Animal Sacrifice- for we will forever be in his presense! ~ Jean Chauvin
You know Jean, for you and I and doc and all us Amillennialists who have posted, such an idea that we will retun to animal sacrifices in some kind of wierd form of animalistic worship when the King himself will be with us is rather wierd. But it does occur to me that the reason so many people believe such things is that they really don't have an understanding of exactly what true worship is all about because they haven't ever really experienced it.
It really doesn't make any sense that we would want to go out and disembowl "Lamb Chop" when we have direct access to the Lamb like Lion.
If I recall correctly, Moon has made claims to being the "returned christ." In other words, he is a false christ. Does that make him the anti-christ?
It makes him AN anti Christ
Since Christ told us that tribulation and persecution would always follow the church and since Rev 7 describes those coming out of the Great Tribulation as being 'countless' and as being from believers from ~every~ tribe, tongue, language and people (apparently including Jews), I must conclude that the Great Tribulation is from the time of Christ's resurrection until his return. ~ Jean Chauvin
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
You know, sister, I have come to believe that we are now in the "1000 year reign of Christ" for reasons of which you have been made irritatingly aware ;-), but I have been becoming increasingly convinced that this is also "the great tribulation". I do notice that the KJV does not render this as THE great tribulation, but simply great tribulation.
Am I to understand that the events described here are not great tribulations:
It does seem, then, if we are to "wash our robes and make them white in the blood of the lamb" then we need to suffer in the flesh. Jesus Himself learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And we have the mind of Christ. But, then that means that we need to arm ourselves with the purpose to suffer.
Hbr 11:35-37 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: and others had trial of [cruel] mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: they were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;...
(Of whom the world was not worthy:)
1 Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
Does this describe the tribulation?
Don't ask me to defend their position. (I try not to argue for something I can't really prove, even if I suspect that it is correct.)
When did the tribulation begin? When does it end? ~ xzins
Well, I'd say that the tribulations began the moment that sin entered this world. I'd say that the tribulations will end the moment that this world ends.
This doesn't mean that I don't think that things are going to get real bad before the return of the King. I just don't expect that I will get a free pass to escape tribulations because I happen to know God. Why should I expect special treatment when for the first 3 centuries after the Lord's murder the gospel spread over ground wet with the blood of the saints? Personally, I don't think we will complete preaching to the elect in every tribe and tongue until the ground is again wet with the blood of the saints. Some even say that it is happening right now.
Birth Pangs generally come and go, but get worse every time.
Perhaps RnMOMof7 can confirm that be the case.
But historically, reformed theology has defined THE Great Tribulation spoken of in Rev 7 as the whole of the Church age from Christ's resurrection until his return.
Jean
While there is no article "the" present in the Greek rendering of Matthew 24:21, it ~IS~ present in the Greek rendering of Rev 7:14. (i.e. Rev 7:14 is ~not~ referencing specifically Matt 24:21).
Jean
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