Mormons and Muslims? How do you all see each other?

http://www.byui.edu/Ricks/employee/PECKDD/LDS_View_Muhammad.pdf ^

[PFKEY]

A good explaination, thank you.

The problem I have with this is that Jesus said...

John.14

[6] Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

Now if I'm following you correctly then it now reads "no one come to the Father, but by me and Joseph Smith."

Is that a fair and accurate statement?

[drstevej]

The audience of Acts 2 and Acts 17 are the same???? No way.

Paul wasn't embarrassed that the Bereans search the scripture to see if wht he, An Apostle, said was true. Why not subject Joseph Smith to the same test? Paul calls that NOBLE!

***Kinda sad when a self-proclaimed christian has to resort to trying to tell people to NOT pray, and NOT trust the Holy Ghost.***

Kinda sad when you put words into someone's mouth so you can be sad about what you think they said.

WHY DID JOSEPH SMITH CHANGE WORDS IN HIS 'TRANSLATION' OF THE BIBLE? WHY DID JOSEPH SMITH ADD WORDS TO THE BOOK OF REVELATION IN HIS 'TRANSLATION'?

I note you still avoid a ground rule directed one-on-one discussion with Marlowe...

[restornu]

Studying the scripture is certainly to be encouraged, but you notice in Acts 17:11 that they 'received the word with all readiness of mind' FIRST. Kinda sad when a self-proclaimed christian has to resort to trying to tell people to NOT pray, and NOT trust the Holy Ghost.

***

Grig this reminds me of ~

2 Nephi
4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.

5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.

6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.

9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.

[Grig]

Matt 21
33 ¶ Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

---

So, you are saying then you can beat and kill the servenats all you want?

You are welcome to your opinion, but I say that anyone who reject a prophet of God, rejects God as well. Even drstevej agrees with me on this.

[restornu]

I am sorry Steve but you think PM is the cat Meow!

You think the LDS is ignoring him because he is an apostate, no for we pray for all who are inactived.

The LDS believe that when one leave the LDS Church, one can no longer go back to neutral ground, for this is the Lord's Church and when one who is converted leaves, they are now aline themselves with the opposition.

I left mainline Church, but I don't have contempt for it, I just disagree.

[Grig]

Gotta get some sleep now, I'll answer you later, but in the meantime, could you let me know you reasons for researching this, it will help me answer you better. Do you want to just understand the position of other religions and evaluate them by your own means, mild curiosity, searching for truth, or what.

[drstevej]

***You think the LDS is ignoring him because he is an apostate***

Nope, I think you are ignoring him because you can not answer his objections with citations from source documents. You want to avoid a forum where you can't say I know its true because I experienced a burning in the bosom.

***I am sorry Steve but you think PM is the cat Meow! ***

Actually, I do think he is very knowledgeable regarding LDS history and theology. We disagree on a number of theological issues, but they are discussions within the family of God.

***The LDS believe that when one leave the LDS Church, one can no longer go back to neutral ground, for this is the Lord's Church and when one who is converted leaves, they are now aline themselves with the opposition.***

Why then have I read testimonies of lapsed Mormons who come back to the LDS church?

Why are you so afraid to have a discussion of LDS history and doctrine in a one-on-one forum with P-M? As I have read these threads over the past month the answer seems plain... He point out issues and presentsd questions for which you either have no answer or do not want to post your answer. It is easier to bob in and out and when it gets to close to the truth ask the moderator to remove the thread.

I think you are the cat's meow, restornu. I am not sure what it means, but I'm sure it fits you if it's something good.

[Wrigley]

No, he would have run off. Too much free will in that dog.

[Wrigley]

It was for a fall Cadet campout. Boys will be boys; it was their first trip to the campground and they went off exploring without letting anyone know. They thought they were lost, but they never were.

[RnMomof7]

The only purpose LDS theology serves me is to illustrate the error of sola scriptura as it regards the Trinity.



HUH???

[Technocrat]

That's right! I forgot about that.

[Quester]

You know, I thought about this parable this morning. Note that the husbandman was incredibly patient with his rebellious servants, and that it wasn't until they had killed his Son, whom he had sent at the last, that he moved to bring judgement upon them.

So, you are saying then you can beat and kill the servants all you want?

Now, certainly I am not advocating beating and killing anyone. I hope that I didn't sound like I did. But, I believe that this parable, too, makes the point that it is the Son who is key. The prophets do their part, but it all points to the Son.

[Grig]

"This is, once again, merely a claim of the LDS church. What is the evidence for such a claim?"

It is not a big deal to make a list of several things that we consider to be evidence that an apostasy took place, but it is wrong to think that our belive is based in the existance of these evidences. It is the witness of the Holy Ghost that is the foundation our our belief in that, not the arguments of men.

I'm not saything that to dodge the issue, I will direct you to some sources that point out some of the things we see as evidence, but I say to clarify to you that my purpose is not to 'prove' it happened and make you accept our view. My purpose is to explain our position, and then you can decided to do with that information as you think is wise. There is no truth that man can not harden his heart against if he wishes to, but the elect of God will not harden their hearts against the truth. If you are convinced afterwards or not doesn't change the truth of it.

Actually the idea of there being an apostacy is not exclusive to the LDS, every protestant faith began with somebody coming to the same conclustion that an apostasy took place. John Wesley said "This is the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian Church; because the Christians were turned Heathen again, and had only a dead form left." (Wesley's Works, vol 7, sermon 89, pp. 26-27) Martin Luther said: "The spiritual powers have been not only corrupted by sin, but absolutely destroyed; so that there is now a will that is the enemy and opponent of God. I simply say that Christianity had ceased to exist among those who should have preserved it." (Luther and his times, p 509)

If I recall correctly, neither Luther or Wesley had the intention of founding a new church, they did not consider themselves to have the authority of God to do so. They sought to reform the existing church, but when rejected those who belived what they said established churches in their name. We take the position that the apostasy was to the point where reformation could not being back what was lost, so a restoration was needed.

In term so evidences we would point to that support our claim, I will give you some usefull links and encourage you to give serious consideration and prayer to what is said there:

http://library.lds.org/library/lpext.dll/ArchMagazines/Ensign/1984.htm/ensign%20december%201984%20.htm/early%20signs%20of%20the%20apostasy.htm?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm&q=apostasy&x=Simple&2.0#LPHit1

http://library.lds.org/library/lpext.dll/ArchMagazines/Ensign/1995.htm/ensign%20december%201995.htm/apostasy%20restoration%20and%20lessons%20in%20faith.htm?f=hitlist&q=apostasy&x=Simple&opt=&skc=8000000940264CA1601C92B1000024A0&c=curr&gh=1&2.0#LPHit1

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai016.html

[Grig]

"Now if I'm following you correctly then it now reads "no one come to the Father, but by me and Joseph Smith.""

You are not following correctly then. Nobody comes to the Father but by Christ. Don't try and tell God you accept Christ however if you reject the propets of God.

[PFKEY]

Thanks for the clarrification.

I see what you are saying now.

[Grig]

"The audience of Acts 2 and Acts 17 are the same???? No way. "

In Acts 2 they were speaking to potential converts. We follow the same patter in our missionary efforts, conversion by the Holy Ghost, not by argument. I think you greatly streach the meaning of Acts 17:11 beyond what can be justfied by the text of it. I think it only indicates that those who are familair with the scriptures are in a better position to recognize the truth than those who don't, you will notice in the next verse that it says MANY, (not ALL) of them believed.

Seaching the scripture is noble, but being so proud that you rely on only your own understanding and refuse to humble yourself and listen to the Spirit of God is NOT noble. If a person can be talked into a thing, they can be talked out of it too.

"Kinda sad when you put words into someone's mouth so you can be sad about what you think they said. "

That's not a denial.

"WHY DID JOSEPH SMITH CHANGE WORDS IN HIS 'TRANSLATION' OF THE BIBLE? WHY DID JOSEPH SMITH ADD WORDS TO THE BOOK OF REVELATION IN HIS 'TRANSLATION'? "

Why do you suddenly change the topic?

"I note you still avoid a ground rule directed one-on-one discussion with Marlowe... "

Then also note my reasons.

[Grig]

"Why then have I read testimonies of lapsed Mormons who come back to the LDS church? "

Just because someone is excommunicate doesn't mean that they are apostate. So, in most cases an excommunicated member CAN return if they repent, but in some cases, when a person is in open rebellion against God and konwingly so, the spirit of God withdraws from them fully and they will not ever return.

[Grig]

"Now, certainly I am not advocating beating and killing anyone"

Well, I didn't mean that litteraly, but as used in the parable.

"I believe that this parable, too, makes the point that it is the Son who is key. The prophets do their part, but it all points to the Son."

If they kill the servents, let the Son come and go unmolested, then go back to killing the servants, should they still not be replaced? Rejecting a prophet of God has consequences to it. What is so hard to accept about that?

[Quester]

When one has accepted the Son, one would have no part in bating and killing the prophets of God.

Also, when one has accepted the Son, one is led into all truth by the Holy Spirit (over the course of a lifetime).

If Joseph is a prophet of God, one day we will know.

If Joseph is not a prophet of God, we will know that as well.

[Grig]

I agree, but there is no need to passivly wait for 'one day'. You can start to read the BoM and pray to God about it today. Leaving it for 'one day' isn't wise IMHO.