30,000 Protestant Denominations?

http://www.pressiechurch.org/Shepherding_the_Sheep/How%20many%20Protestant%20denominations%20are%20there.htm ^ | 9/24/02 | Eric Svendsen 

[Woodkirk]

The existence of multiple denominations is an anathema to Rome.
The denominations are an expression of the free enterprise
system of religion, something that Rome so disdains. Free
people able to freely discover the truth of God's Word instead
of having it imposed upon them, and having the talking points
laid out for them. Some people don't like freedom, either
for themselves or others.

[Woodkirk]

Rome lives in a fantasy world and you guys with them.
Peter was the FIRST leader of the Church at Jerusalem,
and Jerusalem was the FIRST Church. Whatever was meant by the binding, loosing, and the keys have relevance to Peter as head
of the Chuch at Jerusalem FIRST. And James, the brother
of Jesus, was his successor, not Linus. If you guys wanted
to make Peter a Pope, it would have to be of the Church of Jerusalem
not Rome.

[RnMomof7]

      I believe that the remarkable thing is that these churches, while having some doctrinal differences (sometimes with heated disputes), generally agree on core issues.  This is not ararchy - it is the result of the recognition of the same King by all. 


Agree...we speak with one voice on matters of eternal importance

[Woodkirk]

Simon's name "Cephas" [Kaphas in the Greek] is not Aramaic.
It is from the Hebrew word "kaph/keph" meaning "rock, hollow
rock". It is not used but a few times in the OT in Job and in
Jeremiah 4:29.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

And of course, we all know that this list can be supplemented by distinctions between moderate Roman Catholics (represented by almost all Roman Catholic scholars), Conservative Roman Catholics (represented by Scott Hahn and most Roman Catholic apologists), Traditionalist Roman Catholics (represented by apologist Gerry Matatics), and Sedevacantist Roman Catholics (those who believe the chair of Peter is currently vacant).

This quote caught my eye.

As one who follows their respective careers, I would point out that Matatics and Hahn were best friends at (protestant) Seminary, of course. Just for my personal benefit, has anyone yet figured out whether or not Gerry Matatics is a Communicant Conservative Roman Catholic, or a Schismatic Traditionalist Sedevacantist Catholic?

• Matatics himself says that he is not a Sedevacantist, and that his numerous associations and speaking engagements with Traditionalists are NOT schismatic in any material sense (and certainly not formally schismatic).
• Meanwhile, Karl Keating and the gang over at Catholic Answers, having studied Matatics' associations and writings in depth, insist that Matatics is a Traditionalist, a materially-schismatic Sedevacantist in essence, and is formally schismatic in all but name (did you catch all that? grin...)

Which almost begs the (rhetorical) question: Are you a Sedevacantist schismatic when you say that you are, or when the rest of "Conservative Catholicism" says that you are??

I ask partly out of academic interest. I have read both Hahn and Matatics, and as a debater, Matatics is by far the superior Apologist (mind you, I speak only my own personal opinion, as a former scholastic and collegiate Debater of some minor accomplishment).

I have read plenty of the writings of both Matatics and Hahn, and transcripts of each; and I know the sort of preparation which goes into a formal Debate. If I were, for some unfathomable reason, compelled to debate Dr. Scott Hahn on a specific and pre-defined doctrinal proposition (anyone wanna offer me an extended paid vacation and clear it with my employer?), I think that I could adequately prepare myself given the space of about two weeks. I would certainly need to call upon the input of such professional Presbyterian apologists as Steve Wilkins, Brian Abshire, Steve Schlissel, and of course the indefatigable Tristan Emmanuel (sigh -- some Presbyterians are predestinated to get the COOLEST names); I'd be doing myself a dis-service if I did not call on Baptist Apologists James White and Richard Bennett.

And I am not so arrogant as to deny the real possibility that Hahn would wipe the floor with my amateur hide!!

"It really don't matter if I lose this fight. It really don't matter if this guy opens my head, either. 'Cause all I wanna do is go the distance. No one's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standing, I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."

But on the other hand, I've read Hahn's stuff. His arguments are too rote. His thinking is too hidebound. I'm reminded of some advice my collegiate Debate Coach once gave me in before a round with a (seeming) Debate Juggernaut team from another school -- "They don't know anything they're not prepped for. They can't think on their feet. Get them off their blocs (that's "debate lingo" for taking someone outside the box of their pre-formatted Arguments) and they will FOLD like a weak bluff."

That's the way that Scott Hahn's arguments read -- to me, anyway. Too rote. Too hidebound. Give me two weeks prep-time with the best minds in Protestant Apologia, and I am not the most incompetent Debater around. I think I could at least "go the distance".

But Matatics?? What, are you freakin' kidding me? I've read Matatics. The guy is not only knowledgeably erudite, he is intellectually sharp -- keen as a bloody straight-razor. He's both as thoughtful in his preparation, as he is innovative in his composition and presentation -- a ruthless combination. Two weeks? Gee, thanks but no thanks. Two weeks and I'm a lamb to the slaughter. Two months would be scarcely enough.

But of course, this (entirely-hypothetical) scenario is entirely MOOT if the best Mind in Roman Catholic apologetics alive today (Gerry Matatics, in only-my-own-personal-opinion) is NOT EVEN A ROMAN CATHOLIC but rather a schismatic Traditionalist Sedevacantist.

So, I know that the Roman Catholic Church has a LOT on its plate these days, but once you guys figure out whether or not so-called Roman Catholics like FReeper "Theresa" (who basically affirm that modern Jewish Pharisees can go to their graves blaspheming Jesus Christ and yet be saved) represent the "Truth of Rome", can somebody get back to me and tell me whether or not Gerry Matatics is still a communicant and faithful Roman Catholic?

I personally think that he's one of the best "Roman Catholic" apologists in the world (if not the best), but then Karl Keating tells me that Matatics is not even a Roman Catholic at all -- but rather an SSPX Sedevacantist Schismatic.

It's all very confusing.

---

All that said, I've another observation to make -- rather a funny one. Well, "funny" in the sense of black humor, at least.

When one reads the Roman Catholic Apologia-by-Testimonial book "Surprised by Truth", it's like reading a Codex of the Roman Front Line of public Apologetics in the World today.

And what does one find, when one studies the roster of modern Roman Apologists? Let us see...

Gerry Matatics
Scott Hahn
James Akin
Marcus Grodi
Robert Sungenis
Paul Thigpen
Steve Wood
TL Frazier

What does one find when one studies the modern codex of Roman apologia? What "distinguishing characteristic" unites the vast bulk of Public Roman Apologists in the world today?

To a man they are all Lapsed Presbyterians.

Every single one of 'em.

Granted, "Surprised" does throw in one well-known Apologist Roman ex-Baptist (Tim Staples), as well as one Ex-Jew (in Calvinist circles, we'd call him a completed Jew -- if he were Calvinist, that is) and one ex-Evangelical "Jesus Freak", but eight out of eleven testimonial cases are former Calvinist Continental Reformed and/or Calvinist Presbyterians. (You might add "cradle-Catholic" Karl Keating as a prominent modern public Catholic Apologist, but of course Keating has said he is not a good public debater and refuses public debates).

Some of these lapsed Presbyterians repudiate their Calvinism; others (such as James Akin, "Tiptoe through the TULIPS") seek to find a place for their Calvinism within the Roman Thomist-Augustinian tradition ("a double-minded man"??).

But nonetheless, essentially the Entire Front Line of Roman Apologetics in the Public Forum of the world today are basically a gaggle also-ran Presbyterians.

I'm pretty sure that one of us should be embarassed by this, Polycarp....
...but I'm honestly not sure which -- you or me!! (lol)

But, methinks it's an interesting tidbit.

Question: Whaddya call a second-rate Presbyterian Apologist who lapses from his faith?
Answer: A first-rate Roman Catholic Apologist!!

Just grist for the mill.... best, OP.

[Polycarp]

I'm pretty sure that one of us should be embarassed by this, Polycarp....

Then Jesus was an also-ran Jewish carpenter from Nazareth...I'm not loosing sleep over it, OP.

[drstevej]

***I'm pretty sure that one of us should be embarassed by this, Polycarp....
...but I'm honestly not sure which -- you or me!! ***

Excellent post, OP.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Then Jesus was an also-ran Jewish carpenter from Nazareth...I'm not loosing sleep over it, OP.

Matatics is good, but he ain't Jesus.

I was just making an observation about the lineage of modern Roman Apologists. (Well, if they even ARE Roman, that is -- I am genuinely curious about Matatics' communicant status, I will admit, given my appreciation for his talent if nothing else). But it was intended humorously, Polycarp, not seriously (there are, of course, Roman Apologists from non-presbyterian backgrounds... they just are not the Roman "Majors").

But, if you want to get into an Argument of Jesus versus the Pharisees -- as echoed in the Reformers versus Rome, p'raps? -- that's an argument I'm more than willing to get into.

Just business, it is.

BUT, it was not my intent at the moment... I was just making an observation.

[drstevej]

I am not familiar with Matatics. What are some of the titles he wrote?

[Polycarp]

it was not my intent at the moment...

I know, OP. It was a good point. No problem here.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Excellent post, OP. ~~ 327 posted on 9/29/02 8:05 PM Pacific by drstevej

Much obliged!!

As you know, I think that so-called "Cal-Minians" are basically Pelagian Heretics who like to say "nice words" about "God's Sovereignty", but don't really mean it.

As a result, finding a genuine Reformation Amyrauldian in a pile of disingenuous Dallas Theological Cal-Minians is like finding a needle in a haystack.

However, I think you a genuine Amyrauldian. As a Five-Pointer myself, I think you genuinely wrong, of course; but I do think you to be genuine.

I may (and do) disagree with you; but I esteem you to be that "Amyrauldian needle" in a stack of DTS Cal-Minian stubble.

So, I thank you for the compliment!!

best, op

[drstevej]

LOL. Can I use you for a reference?

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I know, OP. It was a good point. No problem here. 330 posted on 9/29/02 8:26 PM Pacific by Polycarp

Okay, my bad. I confess that I was hasty in assuming your ill-temper; I thought maybe you were having a bad night with the "Everything is Catholic!!" gang like "Theresa" and perhaps you thought that I was being opportunist for making fun of them. (although frankly I do reserve the right to make fun of them.)

I would point out that if (as I am sure you personally believe) in any way the journey of these Lapsed Presbyterians to their so-called "Rome Sweet Home" were supposed to be any kind of alleged valid pilgrimage, it is certainly NOT so that Modernist Heretics would make of their "Rome Sweet Home" a mere non-salvific Shriner's Club with no real claims to "Absolute Truth".

But I should not have assumed any kind of ill-temper in your response.

Mea maxima Culpa. :-(

best, op

[tiki]

So abortion is ok in most protestant beliefs?

[RnMomof7]

So abortion is ok in most protestant beliefs?

I have never taken a survey...In the Evangelical circles abortion is viewed as it is in the RC church

There are liberal mainsteam churchs that take various positions ..including talking out of both sides of their mouths ...

Most Bible based "fundamental "churchs would walk the pro life picket lines with Catholics

Now we must allow for hypocrisy...I have heard that almost 1/2 the abortions preformed are done on Catholic girls....So the bottom line is at the end of the day ...a heart matter

[RnMomof7]

Question: Whaddya call a second-rate Presbyterian Apologist who lapses from his faith? Answer: A first-rate Roman Catholic Apologist!!

Ochhhhhhhhh

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I am not familiar with Matatics. What are some of the titles he wrote? 329 posted on 9/29/02 8:16 PM Pacific by drstevej

LOL!!

Oh great... You're "not familiar with Matatics"?

Good grief, Dr.J -- Next you'll be telling me that you are not familiar with Miyamoto Musashi, the greatest Swordsman who ever walked the face of the Earth.

I don't pretend to believe that Musashi was Christian (in fact, according to the Providence of Him who works all things according to the Good Pleasure of His will, God permitted Musashi to single-handedly annihilate the Christian daimyos of Shimawara in 1638, and thereby bind Japan over unto 300 years of spiritual darkness)...

...and I don't necessarily "assume" that Gerry Matatics is a Saved, Regenerate Christian either. I don't deny his Christianity, but I don't assume it either. "He who Perserveres to the End, he shall be Saved" (Matthew 24:13) -- and I frankly don't regard the Roman Catholic Church as the best vessel of Matatic's perseverance, if at all.

But if Roman Apologetics does have a latter-day Miyamoto Musashi in its ranks (that is, assuming that Apostate Roman Church is still "christian" in any sense of the word), I personally adjudge that Swordsman to be Gerry Matatics... assuming that the "Modernist" Catholic Heretics have not already extirpated Matatics from the Roman Church!! (I ain't exactly "clear" on this point)

However, for what it's worth, here is the link:

---

GERRY MATATICS: Biblical Foundations International
"In all my contacts in the Roman Catholic world over the past 50 years, I count Gerry as the most gifted, best educated Scripture scholar in the Church." -- The late Dr. William Marra, Emeritus Professor of Philosophy, Fordham University; Founder, The Roman Forum; Host, Where Catholics Meet

---

Note: I DO NOT recommend this link for the spiritually naive, nor the theological novice. And I have two pieces of Advice:

• To the PROTESTANTS I would say: Enter at your own Risk. This is not the place for the weak of heart. This is not your laughable bloody two-bit tripe from "Catholic Answers". When you encounter Matatics, you are encountering the Best of the Best. This particular Whet-stone is pure flint, baby... don't even enter the smithy unless you are ready to seriously sharpen your Sword.

• And to the ROMAN CATHOLICS I would say: Get it WHILE YOU CAN. Matatics is a Council of Trent Roman Catholic (the kind that Martin Luther and John Calvin would recognize, aside from his lapsed Presbyterianism) and he does not fit this bastardized THING that you call "Roman Catholicism" anymore. So get it while the getting's good -- this is Old-Style Roman Catholic Apologetics, the kind that actually MEANT something. But it doesn't mean anything anymore. I wager that Matatics will be Formally Excommunicated before he is 60... so harvest what you can, if you have any delusions of being able to Argue against a True Protestant.

But all in all, I will simply say to True Christians within Rome: "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plaques." Rev. 18:4

best, op

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

To: OrthodoxPresbyterian LOL. Can I use you for a reference? 332 posted on 9/29/02 8:36 PM Pacific by drstevej

A reference???

What, a "reference" from a washed-up ex-MetalHead from the wrong side of the tracks, just doing the best I can to make good... "as God gives me the Light to see that Duty" (with apologies to the blessed Dougie Mac, may he rest in Heaven)?

Not entirely sure you'd want my "reference", brother;
Me, I just call 'em as I see 'em. (grin)

best, op

[RnMomof7]

NEWS FLASH: Anti-Catholic Fundamentalist converts after hearing Gerry speak,

News flash for Jerry..I am MANY like me have left the "mother church" after studing the word of God...

Choice..Word of God

or

Word of Jerry

Ummmmmmmmmmmm may the Wheat think on that a bit?

[Woodkirk]

Is there something about or within Presbyterian circles that somehow leans toward Roman Catholicism, or are these RC apologists merely anomalies.

I had a Presbyterian pastor in my old neighborhood who was listening to Karl Keating tapes. When I asked him how he would counter Keatings arguments, he was lost for words. Is it possible that in seminary they spend too much time studying the writings of Calvin and Luther, both of whom were never able to shake off a lot of RCC theology but incorporated i into their own.