Spurgeon's View of the MILLENNIUM

OP,

You've been using Jer 22:28-30 to argue that the house of Solomon was cut-off from ever reigning in Old Jerusalem in a carnal, earthly kingdom. Have I summarized that part of your argument correctly?

If I have then can you tell me how you came to that conclusion from the Jeremiah passage? The passage is only talking about Jeconiah. Why couldn't another branch of Solomon's house reign in Old Jerusalem over a carnal, earthly kingdom?

Thanks.

Woody, that's just so much trash. You all call us names because we use the bible to support our doctrine. The real problem is that ftD is biblically literate and opponents don't know how to respond to the bible when it clearly disagrees with them.

Woody, that's just so much trash. You all call us names because we use the bible to support our doctrine.

Nope! I'm properly identifying someone who acts exactly like a God hating Tare. Now, please answer the question I asked earlier: If the Lord is not now reigning in heaven, then who is? Satan? If there is Biblical support for the fact that the Lord does not reign right now, then you need to actually quote the passages from the Bible which do declare who is reigning in heaven.

The real problem is that ftD is biblically literate and opponents don't know how to respond to the bible when it clearly disagrees with them.

Yes, this is a big problem with PreMillennialism in that it doesn't know how to respond to the Bible when it clearly disagrees with them:

Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age [ the age of the sowing of the seed]. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. "Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us!' But he answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.' "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.
"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.... And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:.... Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:.... And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

It is clear from the gospel that at the end of this age of the sowing of seed that the Lord will return. He will have the wicked separated from the just and all things that offend will be cast into the furnace of fire when He returns.

This is basic gospel stuff, which you must pervert to fit to your eschatology.

No one said that God doesn't reign in heaven. Why do you create things that simply aren't said?

The point is that you say that the millennium is here now and that Christ is reigning in the millennial kingdom NOW, that it's here NOW.

We say, "no it isn't....it's yet future."

Anyone with a bible can see that it isn't NOW. Anyone with eyes can see that it isn't NOW. The Maryland Sniper proves that it isn't NOW.

No one said that God doesn't reign in heaven. Why do you create things that simply aren't said?

xzins - "The Lord said unto my Lord, sit at my right hand until I make thine enemies a footstool."

CCWoody - When exactly did Jesus sit and wait for all His enemies to be made His footstool, including Death (1 Co 15:24)?

forthedeclaration - Christ is not ruling over his Kingdom right now.

The only inference that I can draw is that ftd believes that the Lord is not now reigning in heaven. Please take it up with the one who acts like a spiritual Tare.

The point is that you say that the millennium is here now and that Christ is reigning in the millennial kingdom NOW, that it's here NOW.

I'm saying that at the end of this age of the sowing of seed, the Lord will return and have the wicked separated from the just and that all things offensive will be cast into the furnace of fire. Now, unless you want to declare to me that an enemy of the Lord is not offensive, then you must affirm that death will be cast into the furnace of fire at the end of this age when the Lord returns. And PreMillennialism just doesn't square with this. You must actually pervert the gospel to make it agree with PreMillennialism.

This is basic gospel stuff.

Anyone with a bible can see that it isn't NOW. Anyone with eyes can see that it isn't NOW. The Maryland Sniper proves that it isn't NOW.

Anyone with a Bible can clearly see that there are things offensive in the Lord's kingdom and anyone with a Bible can see that at the end of this age, when the Lord returns, He will have all things offensive cast into the furnace of fire. Unless you want to pervert the gospel as PreMillennialism does.

Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age [ the age of the sowing of the seed]. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. "Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us!' But he answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.' "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.
"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.... And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:.... Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:.... And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Basic gospel stuff!

Just because you misinterpret "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" doesn't mean that I have to.

There is a 1000 year reign of Christ on the Earth (Rev 20).

I don't care if you don't like the prophecy. It's still bible and you can't change bible without threat to your eternal soul.

Also, if he inherited the promises as an adopted son, would he not also have inherited the sin nature (or is that blood thing?)?

Does an adopted child "inherit" the genes of his adopted father? Does he now look like his adopted father ? Does he inherit the genetic diseases ?

Basic gospel stuff!

Get thee behind me satan

Just because you misinterpret "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" doesn't mean that I have to.

Nope! I don't. When His kingdom comes and His will is done on earth as it is in heaven, then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Gosh, I can't help it if you pervert basic gospel stuff to make it fit your eschatology.

There is a 1000 year reign of Christ on the Earth (Rev 20).

Too bad that Rev 20 doesn't say on Earth.

If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:....

It might be wise to actually quit saying that Rev 20 says that there will be a 1000 year reign of Christ on the Earth. To maintain such is to risk the anathema upon yourself.

I don't care if you don't like the prophecy. It's still bible and you can't change bible without threat to your eternal soul.

Why don't you take these exact Biblical citations and explain to me just exactly how they don't shred PreMillennialism:

Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age [ the age of the sowing of the seed]. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. "Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us!' But he answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.' "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.
"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.... And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:.... Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:.... And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

"There is a 1000 year reign of Christ ~~on the Earth~~ (Rev 20)."

Correction (yet again! -sigh!)

There is a 1000 year reign of Christ. Now where does Rev 20 mention this reign takes place "on the earth".

Why do you so stubbornly continue to insist that it does?

Jean

**Does an adopted child "inherit" the genes of his adopted father? **

I think I get that part. I was really more interested in an answer to my first question. How can Jesus "inherit" something that's already His to begin with? (the promises)

Basic gospel stuff!

Perhaps you might explain to me just exactly how these Biblical citations are not basic gospel stuff:

Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age [ the age of the sowing of the seed]. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. "Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us!' But he answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.' "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.
"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.... And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:.... Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:.... And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Get thee behind me satan

Like I said, what I have quoted is not Basic gospel stuff!?

Correction:

Like I said, what ~~I have~~ have I quoted [that] is not Basic gospel stuff!?

So very true -- OP's argument is also that of the British-Israelism
crowd.

You certainly are not addressing my Argument.

Oh, I sure thought I was. Your model is that:
1.The Messiah will be a descent of David through Solomon.
2. The Coniah curse eliminates the possibility that of an earthly kingdom.

You proffer this argument to prove the amill position. The Coniah curse is the key to your argument against the Premill position while the descent through the house of Solomon is a secondary argument. If the Coniah curse proves to be temporary your house of cards falls down. To be honest, I like your interpretation of Jeremiah 22:28-30 better than the traditional Jewish Rabbis interpretation. The problem I'm having is the significance of the signet ring, which you just blew off, and its relationship to the curse. Zerubbabel is extremely important to messianic prophecy so I think we should be careful how we treat him because it may affect other prophecies. (This could be potentially demon-deceiving stuff.) [grin]

Lets take a look at the signet ring.

"A ‘signet ring’ came to be regarded as a symbol of one’s authority - the signet ring or ‘seal’ showed the owner’s identity when stamped on almost anything. The kings of Judah and society’s well-to-do would usually carry their own seal upon their person (in the form of a ring or tied about their necks - there have been many different styles of seals recovered from archaeological digs) and so ‘seal’ documents and the like with their authority (see Esther 8:10) often making an impression in soft clay that, when hardened, would be indisputable proof that a transaction had been made. Trusted slaves could also be given their master’s seal to be able to buy goods ‘to the master’s account’/’in the master’s name’ when they attended market places and bazaars.
The signet ring therefore symbolised the person whose mark it bore but also carried with it the authority of that person - in very much the same way as a signature does in today’s society. A person who can sign on behalf of another is one who has the right to exercise the authority of that individual as they see fit."

This then appears to show that the authority that God took away from Coniah he gave back to Zerubbabel. This is not conclusive evidence in my mind that the curse was lifted but it surely resumed the Davidic line through Zerubabbel.

My concern with your model is that it may change or render null some of the very important messianic prophecies of the last minor prophets irregardless of any eschatological implications. It appears that your model totally discounts Mary's lineage.I think it's important that we don't discount Mary's lineage. Here is why I think Mary's lineage is important:

'Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the Lord. It is he who will build the temple of the Lord, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two offices.' [Zechariah 6.12-13]

In Luke it shows Mary's lineage through her father as a Davidic, Kingly, lineage. We also know that Elizabeth who was her cousin was of the Aaronic or priestly lineage. This prophecy to Jeshua(priest) and Zerubbabel(king) then seems to fit both sides of Mary's lineage. It is in Mary's lineage that this prophecy is fulfilled and the picture of a King and a Priest is highlighted by Mary's lineage. It is in this one branch of Mary that the Priesthood and Kingship are united and their is 'harmony between the two offices' .

Additionally, in the prophecies of Zechariah to Zerrubbabel God seems to be making a clean break from the Solomonic line while still holding onto his promise.

6 Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts. 7 'What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel {you will become} a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of "Grace, grace to it!'"" [Zechariah 4:6-7]

This seems to be a very strong statement by God regarding kingly descent. God appears to be saying here that the Messiah would not gain power through military strength or claim authority because of kingly lineage but only through the Holy Spirit. This then appears to coordinate with the Holy Spirit's work in the conception in the virgin Mary. Then Mary is the typology of both the work of the Holy Spirit and the combination of the Priesthood and Kingship.

In summary, it appears that Zerubbabel is the important link between Jesus and David and whether or not the Coniah curse was temporary or temporal seems less important than the fact that God promised that Zerubbabel would be the key link. What you now need to consider is how your model effects the prophecies relating to Zerubbabel, irregardless of any eschatological concerns, and God's breaking off the Solomonic branch for a new branch that combined the priesthood and kingship by the work of the Holy Spirit.

You have broken your promise to me ..You have proved yourself a liar and a man that does not keep his word.

You have broken your promise to me ..You have proved yourself a liar and a man that does not keep his word.

2 Things:

I am not talking to you, but xzins.
I have done nothing but quote the gospel itself and I will call the quotes of the gospel basic gospel stuff.

With that said, you owe me an apology!

You have proved yourself a liar and a man that does not keep his word...

You can't say I didn't try to warn you.

So very true -- OP's argument is also that of the British-Israelism crowd.

Would you explain that to me? I am pretty dumb on that

You can't say I didn't try to warn you.

Hey, Frank, I have noticed that you never show up except to gloat about perceived divisions among the saints. In short, you are a perfect example of Romans 16:17. So, please crawl back into your hobbit hole.