The Theological Aesthetics of Hans Urs von Balthasar

La Salle University ^ | Joel Garver

[White Mountain]

Your #347: The LDS has in recent years desired to be classified as "christian"

We just are, that's all. We will let you guys be Christians, too, if you do what He says. Otherwise, you are just professing. 8o)

[RnMomof7]

Isn't it true that the LDS did not want to be associated with the professing Christian church before the last few years as we are so apostate? Wasn't the term "Saint" the preferred designation?

[Wrigley]

Well, knowing Calvin, its either "Freewill" or "Roll the Bones" by Rush.

[restornu]

Isn't it also true that the Lord said "TO LOVE ONE ANOHTER" and that is hard to do if we are always arguing!

Have A Lovely Sunday ~

http://www.uleth.ca/~anderson/hymns/308.htm

[RnMomof7]

Yep I did know that:>)

[drstevej]

2 Nephi 5:21-22

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be centicing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.

[drstevej]

Cubicle is Adam-God Mormon doctrine or was Brigham Young just out to lunch on this speculation?

[restornu]

It amazes me how many want to defend~

"CAIN'S CRIMINAL ACT & SIN AGAINST GOD",

AND WILL NOT NOR WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT CAIN DID TO GET HIMSELF INTO THAT PLACE! to be cursed and receive a Mark upon the FACE!

a Mark can be a mole, a birth mark, scare of some kind.

If the whole body is changed that is not a MARK!

These are degree people who content here so why not be honest with the definition of the word and language?

SOME OF THE BEHAVIOR THAT IS DISPLACE HERE IS LIKE THE TALKING HEADS OF CLINTON DEFENDERS!

[independentmind]

Bump back, but the thread has changed on a different course as the article. The article is very Catholic in nature. I hope you enjoy it.

To tell the truth, I got lost about half-way through. Von Balthasar is a difficult read. BTW, how did this thread happen to get hijacked? Perhaps someone needs to post von Balthasar's thoughts on the Catholic Church as the one last hope of the modern world.

[JMJ333]

BTW, how did this thread happen to get hijacked? Perhaps someone needs to post von Balthasar's thoughts on the Catholic Church as the one last hope of the modern world.

I made an invitation to one of the LDS members, but in doing so, it brought the Calvinists here who have an ongoing debate with the Mormons all over the religious forum. Kind of difficult to make a point that way, so I just abandoned it.

If I find that piece you were referring to I will post it. Or if you find it, please give me a ping. =)

[restornu]

Nephi and Laman have the same Father so they are brothers and if one family sins against God is the meaning to God the same as it is to the world?

Does not when the world interfers with God's work make the situtation dificult?

If I annoy the Lord is not the problem between me and the Lord and other are to stay out of it?

Vengeance is mind saith the Lord!

The rest of us who LOVE the Lord will stay out of this, yes we can pray for reconciliation.

[P-Marlowe]

If the whole body is changed that is not a MARK!

She has a point. The black skin was not merely a mark, it was a curse. So, if the "curse" was removed in 1978, then why are there still black people?

SOME OF THE BEHAVIOR THAT IS DISPLACE (sic) HERE IS LIKE THE TALKING HEADS OF CLINTON DEFENDERS!

No kidding!

[restornu]

THE TALKING HEADS STILL ARE DEFENDING AND NOT TALKING ABOUT THE CRIMES OF CAIN!


It amazes me how many want to defend~

"CAIN'S CRIMINAL ACT & SIN AGAINST GOD",

AND WILL NOT NOR WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT CAIN DID TO GET HIMSELF INTO THAT PLACE! to be cursed and receive a Mark upon the FACE!

[Jean Chauvin]

Neither...he's dancing to George Thoroughgood's "Bad to the Bone"!

Jean

[RnMomof7]

Thanks Sharon you have a wonderful Sunday too..

[restornu]

GENESIS 4
9 ¶ And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper?

10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.

11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand;

***

NOTHING ABOUT SKIN COLOR!

***

12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

***

HOW DID CAIN GET THE MARK HE TOLD THE LORD HE WAS IN DANGER! THE LORD SAID IN VERSE 15

***

14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

16 ¶ And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and are Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

***

LOOK WHO'S FORM IRAD!

***

18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.

[CubicleGuy]

... or was Brigham Young just out to lunch on this speculation?

Don't know yet. There's a difference, I suppose, between doctrine and "official" doctrine. I know that Orson Pratt and Brigham Young had some differences of opinion on the subject. I'm still looking at it; I think there are aspects of it that make a lot of sense; there are others either that don't or that I am confused about. Just because I don't understand it doesn't make it false, just as something isn't necessarily true because I do understand it. Here's Nibley talking about differences of opinion in the church regarding doctrinal matters:

As far as official interpretation of the scriptures is concerned, the Latter-day Saints scoff at the idea that one must study special courses and get a special degree—"training for the ministry"—and thus interpret the Bible for others. Joseph Smith noted many times that interpreters of the scriptures like William W. Phelps and Frederick G. Williams read the scriptures quite differently than he, but he didn't order them to stop or to change. He said we should try to use reason and testimony, but that's all we can do.

There really isn't much that one is absolutely "required" to believe to be a Latter-day Saint. You have to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the Book of Mormon is the word of God (otherwise, why on earth would you want to become a member of this church?), you have to believe in continuing revelation and that God hasn't yet said all He is going to say on any given topic, and you have to believe that we need to have faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ, that we need to repent of our sins, be baptized by the proper authority and obtain the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. Once you've got that down, you're pretty much free to become a prophet and revelator unto yourself. But knowledge of doctrine doesn't get one into the Celestial Kingdom. What does is how well we listen to and heed the promptings of the Holy Ghost -- "For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do." (2 Nephi 32:5). We're encouraged to seek after light and truth, but we can't ignore the practical realities of life, either. We're all involved in a juggling act, trying to decide which balls need to stay in the air, which balls we can afford to drop and let go of for good, and at the last day, God will reward each one of us based on how good our juggling acts in this life were. Are we concerned more with selfish interests, or are we more concerned about trying to make mortality as much like heaven for others as we can? I can imagine "hell" as being a place of solitude, but "heaven" can only exist in the company of others.

I do get troubled by things in the church that I see as being inconsistent. But there's not much I can do about that. I'm just going to worry about tending to those things over which I can have a positive influence, and try not to let the inconsistencies of others shake my testimony in the fundamental things I know to be true.

[P-Marlowe]

NOTHING ABOUT SKIN COLOR!

_

_

Hey She's right!!!!!!!!!

So where does the LDS Church get its idea that the Black people were "cursed" with black skin because they are the descendants of Cain?

Where does it say that the Mark of Cain was black skin? How do we know what the mark was? It isn't mentioned in the Bible. How do we know it wasn't a 666 Tatooed on his forehead? Where did anyone get the idea that the mark of Cain was a black skin or that the mark would be passed on to his descendants?

It is clear that Cain (and Cain alone) was given a "Mark" so that people would recognize him. I don't see anywhere in the Bible that the descendants of Cain were to receive the same "Mark."

If the Mark is some kind of punishment against those who bear it, then doesn't that go against the LDS "Articles of Faith" which state categorically that men shall be punsished only for their own sins?

At any rate Rest is right. Nothing in the Bible supports the LDS position that black people are the descendants of Cain and carry upon them the mark of Cain.

What do you say about that?

[CubicleGuy]

Pearl of Great Price, Moses 7:22 -- "And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them."

[P-Marlowe]

Pearl of Great Price, Moses 7:22 -- "And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them."

Well if the "seed of Cain" is black, how do we know that Cain wasn't born black? Geez, how do we know that Adam wasn't Black? How do we know that Eve wasn't Black? Where in scripture is their skin color described?

Indeed, how do we know that anyone prior to the flood was White?

Can you name one verse in any scripture, including your own, that says that Adam was white?

And how do we know that the Book of Moses was correctly translasted?

We can check the translation of the bible because we have copies of the translated documents. How does anyone attest to the accuracy of the "book of Moses?"

Does the LDS Church have the original manuscripts? What language was it originally written in. What word in the original manuscript was used to translate the word "black?" Does the LDS Church have any links to its original manuscripts for the Pearl of Great Price?

Also what the heck does that scripture mean? Is god some kind of segregationist? "and had not place among them"

Sounds like bad 19th Century English. What does the original manuscript that Joseph Smith used say? Did Moses use poor English?