Posted on 08/06/2002 10:14:51 PM PDT by RnMomof7
THATS WHY THE 'U' IS IN 'TULIP' IS CALLED 'UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION' AND WHY THE 'I' IS CALLED 'IRRESISTABLE GRACE' MAN CHOOSES NOTHING, GOD DOES THE CHOOSING!
He does does he? Is that why Whitefield would weep?
Is that why Spurgeon would plead?
If a Calvinist preaches with your thoughts in mind he will be as cold as death itself.
You fail to see my point. I made no statement that because a man sought after false gods that they were alive in Christ. I said that the fact that man is seeking something spiritual says something. It certainly doesn't mean that he's alive in Christ (A.K.A. saved), simply that he's not "dead" in the sense that Calvinists keep attaching to it. Like I said, all metaphors break down at some point, and "dead in trespasses and sins" does too.
Answer: One who is genuinely regerated will seek after Christ. They will embrace Jesus Christ freely offered in the gospel. Until that soul actually closes with Christ, through faith, they are not saved from the wrath of God.
So there is a logical point in time where a person is regenerate but not saved. Hm.
However, the divine transaction of the effects of grace in the sould are sometimes so instantaneous, one cannot distinguish between the moment of regeneration and the embracing of Christ. That is why any discussion of the ordo salutis ultimately cannot fit within easy categories. The bottom line is clear though: God is the author of salvation and He is the goal of it as well. Man is passive in his regeneration, but clearly active in elements of his salvation.
You know, the bemusing thing is, "High" Arminianism agrees with you even so far as saying that man is passive in regeneration. But Watson says in his Theological Institutes that man is passive in receiving the grace of regeneration; but active in working that grace to salvific ends.
In addition, the Bible indicates that by nature no man seeks after God. Further it is clear, that we by nature are dead in sins and trespasses. I don't have time to cite them all for you.
The issue isn't "are we dead in trespasses and sins naturally?" It's "what does 'dead in trespasses and sins' mean?" Like I said, all metaphors must break down at some point.
Second, I must disagree with you about the question of whether regeneration is equivalent to salvation. Scripture is replete with examples where salvation is equivalent with regeneration, salvation is equal to justification or equal to definitive sanctification. By nature, no one wants to place their life in the hands of Jesus Christ and repent of their sin to a righteous God. Something must account for an individual having a longing to embrace Jesus. That individual had to be regenerated or made alive by the Holy Spirit of God.
The point is, regeneration is concomitant with pardon for sins and initial sanctification, and is the thing which "saves" us from the wrath of God (as some eternal securists like to say, "Can the blood of Jesus burn in hell?"). And you're right, there's something that must account for why there's a desire to seek reconciliation with the Lord. Arminians call it Prevenient Grace, or simply "awakening." It's a Calvinistic assumption that that "something" is regeneration.
The evidence of regeneration is repentance, confession of sin, trust in Christ, as well as the other marks of salvation. They do not appear to me to be the causative agents. The reason is that they cannot account for the divine act of sovereign grace in transferring a sould out of death into life.
More Calvinistic assumptions.
If my decision did so, it would be tantamount to the raising of Lazarus from the tomb. I do not hold within my soul such power, only God does.
No, it would be tantamount to God raising Lazarus from the tomb, and then Lazarus walking out of it. But again, analogies and metaphors BREAK DOWN.
That being said, I cannot presume to know the heart of any man. If he has repented, believes in Christ, and shows the marks of a Christian, I embrace him as one in Christ. I do not claim that only Calvinists can be saved, because the question is not whether one embraces the doctrines of Calvin, but whether one trust in Jesus Christ ALONE for one's salvation. Not their decision. Not their church. Only Jesus.
Is it not a "decision" to trust in Jesus Christ alone for one's salvation? Other than that...nice to see we can agree on something.
They again object, Were not men predestinated by the ordination of God to that corruption which is now held forth as the cause of condemnation? If so, when they perish in their corruptions they do nothing else than suffer punishment for that calamity, into which, by the predestination of God, Adam fell, and dragged all his posterity headlong with him. Is not he, therefore, unjust in thus cruelly mocking his creatures? (emphasis mine) all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first, that we must always return to the mere pleasure of the divine will, the cause of which is hidden in himself. But it does not forthwith follow that God lies open to this charge.There is your 'choice'
Calvin — The grace offered by the Lord is not merely one which every individual has full liberty of choosing to receive or reject, but a grace which produces in the heart both choice and will (Book 2, Chap 3, Sec 13)
In other words, no choice since the choice has already been made by God.
Not at all, it is you who is being inconsistent.
If it all has already been decided by the 'eternal decree' then why the emotional appeals and tears?
If you were consistent in your Calvinism, you would do your 'duty' state the Gospel and leave it at that.
Neither Whitefield nor Spurgeon did so, but made direct appeals for individuals to make decisions, even though 'intellectually' they believed that God had already decided everyone's fate.
Bk3,chap.23. 4. They again object, Were not men predestinated by the ordination of God to that corruption which is now held forth as the cause of condemnation? If so, when they perish in their corruptions they do nothing else than suffer punishment for that calamity, into which, by the predestination of God, Adam fell, and dragged all his posterity headlong with him. Is not he, therefore, unjust in thus cruelly mocking his creatures? I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first, that we must always return to the mere pleasure of the divine will, the cause of which is hidden in himself.
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
James 1
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
To its logical conclusion calvinism is a ying yang system - where evil is a facet of "perfection". What end is served by this deception? - & who is served by this deception ?
what a "mystery"
Well said.
(Glad to have you onboard!)
Thank you!
(Romans 10:17)
Huh? What "choice" do you Calvinists have? I thought the entire point was that God makes all the choices? Don't you teach that His Grace is "Irresistable"? Don't you believe in "unconditional election"? Where is the choice in that?
SD
OK. I thought they were somewhat interchangeable, (that some invited people to be "saved" by being baptised, on the spot). Anyway, my question is still what do Calvinists do? When they preach the Gospel what do they invite people to do? Or don't they? Mom seemed to be saying that you don't even invite people to come to yoru services, where I would think the Gospel would be preached.
SD
Absolutely agree. Salvation = time of God's choosing + place of God's choosing + external call + internal call
But the bottom line is the altar call represents the heresy that man chooses God... Every man ever saved at an altar call had an appointment with God that night..He would have been saved during 'Sound of Music" if he had gone there instead.
You must have missed the part where I talked about the altar call as related to public profession of faith and local church membership. I totally agree that the whole "walk this aisle and be saved" or "say this prayer and be saved" are totally worthless and ineffectual without the person already having been regenerated and hearing the internal call of the Holy Spirit. The person who truly does accept Christ at the altar call is merely showing forth the efficacious work of the Holy Spirit. I will not condemn all altar calls everywhere as heretical simply because some are done with the wrong theological support. There are other reasons for an altar call besides an Arminian "make your choice here and now" salvation.
At the conclusion of my services, I make a relevant application appropriate to the material covered. It is a rare service that I do not present the truth of the Gospel, and call on men to repent of their sins and believe in Christ Jesus for salvation.
However, I don't tell them that they have to walk down that aisle and take the preacher's hand and repeat a canned prayer. We do offer an opportunity for people to come and present themselves as candidates for membership based upon their profession of faith in Christ or by promise of a letter from another Baptist church. Believe me, if the person coming in such a way is not someone well known by me, and I don't already know their testimony of faith in Christ, I do not present them as candidates for membership, but arrange with them to set a time that we can talk so that I can ascertain their sitatuion and also explain to them the responsibilities of church membership. Most all of those coming as candidates for membership are folks that I have counselled with previously at length, and normally I know before the service even begins that they will present themselves at the conclusion of that day's message.
Mostly though, the "invitation" that we offer is an invitation to service, and to make practical application of the message preached, calling on the hearers to take action based upon what they have received.
However, I don't tell them that they have to walk down that aisle and take the preacher's hand and repeat a canned prayer.
OK. Two things. First, wouldn't an "elect" person who God decided it was time to repent, repent whether or not you asked them to?
Second, it sounds to me that you have more an objection to a "canned," or ritualistic, or pre-planned "call." I recognize that there is a certain amount of charlatanism going on, and people may be being fooled. But I don't see where having a ritual is bad.
We do offer an opportunity for people to come and present themselves as candidates for membership based upon their profession of faith in Christ or by promise of a letter from another Baptist church.
OK, I see where you are calling people to join as members, to join in service, and how this is different from calling people to be saved.
SD
......But the bottom line is the altar call represents the heresy that man chooses God....
Now: I also do not condemn all altar calls . We are to have a public proclaimation of faith on that we can agree..
Busted ! LOL
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