A Brick Wall for Arminians

Let the Arminian scrounge up all the arguments he can muster! He cannot escape! There the wall stands and it is the wall of God’s Word and the facts of New Testament history! There is absolutely not the slightest hint that any preacher of the apostolic age ever invited the lost to “come forward” in order to be saved! Neither is there instruction from God to commence doing such a thing! The wall stands! Men and churches which require this innovation—this man-made practice—are acting without Scriptural basis! Let them bloody their heads all they will. They will never find Bible proof for their practice. And this wall extends the whole length of time and throughout the whole of Divine Revelation, hence there is no going over it or around it. Honest men will admit it!

Bemusingly inaccurate. That's my observation about his categorization of Arminian theology. And since he starts off on a false premise, his conclusions are equally false.

What do I mean? He says that Arminians all "invite lost people to come forward to get saved" because their theology demands it. This may be an accurate portrayal of many modern churches, but they are by no means an accurate portrayal of biblical Wesleyan-Arminianism (or "High Arminianism," as opposed to the "Low" Arminianism against which the author rails so). Biblical Wesleyan-Arminianism makes no attempts to get people to come forward prematurely, instead resting assured that the Spirit will do His work in creating a ready heart. For example, in the Wesleyan Revival of the Eighteenth Century, most of the converts were not converted from the Methodists' preaching. Instead, at the end of the field preaching session, the Methodists would often declare the location and hours whereupon they met, and they would form "classes" of people specifically seeking to be saved. Anyone seeking to be saved was welcome, though they were not encouraged to "take it by faith" as many Holiness Movement churches talk about both salvation and entire sanctification. This in itself forms an interesting quandry for Calvinism: If someone is seeking to be saved ("awakened," as the old Methodists called it), are they regenerate already? (According to Calvinism, they would have to be.) But if they're saved already, then why would they be seeking to be saved?

Then again, I grew disillusioned with truthful portrayal of Wesleyan-Arminianism on these boards a long time ago, so please, do carry on.

"If someone is seeking to be saved ("awakened," as the old Methodists called it), are they regenerate already? (According to Calvinism, they would have to be.) But if they're saved already, then why would they be seeking to be saved?"

How can one seek to be awakened, if one is already dead in sin? It seems to me that one cannot seek anything unless they are already awake or enlivened?

Your question really goes to the issue of what does it mean to be saved. Does salvation begin and end in regeneration? Does it occur when one receives pardon for sin? Does it mean initial sanctification? Does it mean conformation to the image of Christ? Arminians tend to obfuscate what salvation means and includes. That obfuscation renders debate difficult.

If you could define what you mean by "saved" and what constitutes the order or process of salvation, then we could have a fruitful discussion.

More foolishness??

Repent and be baptized for the remission of sin. Wasn't that John the Baptist's message? "I Baptize you with water for repentance but one is coming who is mightier who will baptize you with the holy spirit and with fire".

Didn't John expect his people to come forward... to come down to the river where he was and be baptized? To come forward and repent of their sins. To seek God's forgiveness?

Ever read Acts 2??? 36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Peter got this backwards didn't he according to Calvin)?? 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call." 40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

A pretty serious and effective alter call.

The modern invitation which urges lost individuals to “come forward” and “do something” in order to qualify for or bring about the new birth is without Biblical precedent! There is just no place in the Bible where any apostle or New Testament preacher ever did such a thing!

Paul worked hard at reasoning and persuading.

Acts 18: Paul at Corinth and Ephesus 1 After these things Paul departed from Athens and went to Corinth. 2And he found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla (because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to depart from Rome); and he came to them. 3So, because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and worked; for by occupation they were tentmakers. 4And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

I knew Arminius was a Paulist. I knew Arminians were Pauline.

Don't stop trying to reason and persuade others to become Christian.

"Don't stop trying to reason and persuade others to become Christian."

I don't think that this is what is being implied.

What Pugh, and Mom, and I are saying is that the modern practice of "invitations" has no Biblical precedent. I have seen (more times than I am willing to recount) preachers who go into their "canned" invitation, no matter the subject matter of the sermon they have preached. I have seen the interminable "Another verse!" calls, that lead to 25 stanzas of "Just as I am". I have seen the "all heads bowed, all eyes closed" and other such tactics employed. I have seen people "go down the aisle" just so as to draw a service to a close.

Much of this is a form of psychological inducement, often playing off of guilt, and none of it is Christ honoring. (Do you know that the Billy Graham organization actually has counsellors come forward fromt he far reaches of the audience so as to "prime the pump"?)

My greatest condemnation of these practices is based on this: Where are those tens of thousands who "came forward" today? Is Christ real to them, or just a distant memory of some crusade?

I'm one of those tens of thousands. I don't know about the other 9,999. I came to the realization that I was lost and repented of my sins at a Billy Graham crusade when I was 12 years old. My faith has never waivered. I can't say that I'm proud of everything that I've done over the years since then (especially college years). But I have never lost my faith. I have never turned from it. I have never doubted God or his ability to keep me. And God has kept me through thick and thin. Through every trial.

And I agree with you to a degree about your dislike for alter call methods. I think the alter call in and of itself is biblical. Your problem may be with the theatrics that some use. I'm not much into the theatrics myself. I'd probably just tell them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ .... and leave it at that.

But to many the question becomes this. If you could start a counselor walking down the isle.... and it made a person less afraid to step out and act upon the faith that God is willing to give them... would you start the counselor from the back?

If you believe that God is going to call those who are saved and that they are all going to respond instantly to that call (the moment salvation is offered).... that it is solely up to God... then you probably don't start the counselor at the back. But if you believe that God is going to call those in your congregation, and that they must then accept or reject this calling... maybe you do everything that you can to help or persuade them to accept the calling of the spirit.

I think in Acts 2 that Peter did everything he could to persuade his listeners to accept the message. To believe that Jesus Christ is the savior.

I fully support your opposition to ploys used to get people to come forward at a meeting/service/event.

ONe of my worst experiences as a young UNBELIEVER was when at the age of 12 a preacher came down from the pulpit to confront me in the pew during an invitation. He took my arm and led me forward and then announced to the congregation that I had said "such and so." My parents were overjoyed until after service I told my father that I had said no such thing. I believe that event injured my coming to the Lord. This preacher was a southern baptist calminian.

A similar event occurred with a different preacher when I brought a female friend to church when I was about 17. This preacher again came from the pulpit and attempted to confront my friend. This is such an embarrassing thing for the person, and any assent given the preacher is more out of this psychological embarrassment than out of anything else. I told the preacher (in a low voice) to leave my friend alone. He never forgave me that. Surprisingly, this man was a rock solid, hard-shell calvinist. His son and I were very good friends, so it eventually blew over. But it wasn't fun. I believe that this, too, injured my coming to the Lord until a later date.

It sounds like we agree in our support of reasoning and persuading, AND that we both reject psychological, emotionally-based ploys. Jerry, I'm afraid that all this agreeing is gonna get us in trouble with someone, someplace. LOL.

If you could define what you mean by "saved" and what constitutes the order or process of salvation, then we could have a fruitful discussion.

I was thinking the same thing after reading (and at times skimming out of disgust) the article until I got to your post.

I can point directly to the moment I "accepted Christ" at an Easter service in a Baptist church. I actually had first sensed the need for Christ at a church retreat some friends took me on, but was unsure of whether I had really accepted Christ as my Savior. So, when the Baptist minister made his altar call about being sure, I rose and headed up front. From that time on, I went through varying periods between walking with the Lord and not. Most of the worst things I've ever done occured after that call, yet so were some of my times of greatest faith. It wasn't until two summers ago while reading the Left Behind series of books that I got a real "wake-up call" to my need to seek the Lord in all things (I know how fierce the debate rages over these books and whether they're a good thing or a bad thing, but one thing I do know: whether they are eschatologically sound or not, whether they are good literature or not, the Holy Spirit used them to awaken a lot in me and my life has not been the same since....the books did not change my life, the Spirit did).

I believe for some it is easy to point to a moment of conversion, and for others it is not. Not everybody has a moment as obvious and direct as Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus. Nevertheless, while it is not always easy to be sure of the moment of conversion, it is much easier to witness the evidences of it in the fruit you produce.

Having said all that, I'm disappointed in the haughty and conceited tone of this article. Not only does the author come off as having the "smoking gun" to convict all Arminians of heresy (which, IMHO even as a Calvinist, I do not think he has), but he wrongly characterizes all non-Calvinists by their lowest common denominator. Most of the churches I've been to DO NOT REQUIRE that you come to the front of the sanctuary to accept Christ in order to make it official. Many invite people up, but in my church in particular (Disciples of Christ) the invitation is for those who have ALREADY accepted Christ as their Savior and who wish to make a public profession of their faith (the same call is also used as an invitation for those who wish to officially join the congregation and all that is required is the affirmation of a statement of faith).

I personally think this article and this argument are rediculous. I don't think any of the brothers and sisters in here, whether Calvinist or Arminian, endorse the kind of cohersion xzins talked about. I also believe there is importance in guidance beyond that initial profession of faith. There are many who will get caught up in the emotion of a mass altar call and say the "sinner's prayer" and cry out to God...and then six months later be back to the same old thing because there was no guidance, instruction or support. From what I've been told many of the larger ministries, such as Billy Graham's, make sure those who come forward have literature to help answer some of the "now what do I do?" questions, and that they strongly encourage new believers to find a church as soon as possible. I hope this is true.

There is nothing wrong with urging, beseeching, inviting, and warning lost individuals that they must come savingly to Jesus Christ or else be eternally lost.

But asking them to walk 20 feet is to put their souls in peril. What strange ideas you have.

New Testament preachers acted in this way, but did nothing more or less. No New Testament preacher ever urged a physical act upon the purely spiritual matter of the new birth.

Are you arguing that when Jesus told Peter and the other fishermen to leave their nets and follow Him, they just stayed right where they were at? That when Jesus told the rich man to sell all he had and follow Him, He was just joking?

The Arminian system, to whatever degree it is followed, robs God of His majestic sovereignty over the souls of men. God said, “All souls are mine . . .” (Ezek. 18:4) and He has the right to do with His creatures as pleases Him! Some Arminians are willing to use the term sovereignty with regard to God in certain aspects, but limit God’s right to dispense His grace as He pleases. They will allow that God is sovereign in all matters except in the salvation of the lost. Their rotten doctrine is this: man is master of his own destiny, God is not in control. Man determines his eternal destiny: God can only respond as an obedient flunky to the decision of spiritually dead sinners! Thus God is reduced to an anxious, hand-wringing bystander who can only react to the freewill decision of dead sinners and save them after they “decide for Christ!”

If my characterization of the Calvinist position is even a tenth as ill-formed as this "understanding" of the Arminima view, then I apologize.

So then unless one is baptised one can not be saved?

Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Peter got this backwards didn't he according to Calvin)?? 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call." 40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

That is indeed powerful and all the elect responded to it..the reprobates still spiritaully dead did not!

How do I know? Well the Bible tells me that

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

but you REALLY were not saved that day right..unless Billy Graham baptised you..that is what you said earlier..isn't it?

Let us close with this last verse from Your quote above Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Salvation is of the Lord..He selects the Bride ..You did not choose Him he chose you..

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