MAN IS A FREE MORAL AGENT

http://hellbusters.8m.com/eby/freeagent.htm#The%20Sinner%20Must%20Decide ^ | 8/1/02 | Preston Eby

[RnMomof7]

Psa 119:32   I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart.

Jhn 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

[RnMomof7]

Sola Gratia Bump

[fortheDeclaration]

Even if Adam was a free moral agent, God is responsible for what happened in the Garden, for whatever a free moral agent may do, He is responsible for it who made him a free moral agent. If God made man a free moral agent, then God created within man the propensities for either good or evil which determined his choices.

So, the next time we say in your system God is author of sin are you going to be outraged?

Adam had no 'propensities' for evil, he had the ability to choose.

A week from now you will be claiming that Calvinists do preach 'free will'

[restornu]

A week from now you will be claiming that Calvinists do preach 'free will'

You make you chuckle I am belly laughting! You should be more careful in thinking out loud:)

[RnMomof7]

Adam had no 'propensities' for evil, he had the ability to choose.

You are correct Dec Adam had something none of his seed has had since the fall..Perfect free will.

He knew God ..He heard Him and walked with Him..and yet he chose to rebel .

God foreknew that Adam would choose to sin , He allowed it. He could have moved the tree or kept the snake out of the garden..He could have made Adam in a way that he would have choose not to rebel. But He did not.

Since that sin no man has enjoyed the same free will that Adam had. None of us can choose to walk with God in the garden. None of us want to untill we are born again..not of corruptabe seed (Adam) but incorruptible (Christ). Then we can hear and see and respond

[zadok]

Excellent post.

[fortheDeclaration]

Adam had no 'propensities' for evil, he had the ability to choose. You are correct Dec Adam had something none of his seed has had since the fall..Perfect free will.

Well, then your nitwit author is wrong! Man did have free will!

He knew God ..He heard Him and walked with Him..and yet he chose to rebel .

He what? He chose to rebel!!!

You mean God predestinated him to do that don't you?

Ofcourse, Adam wanted to rebel, but it was God who gave him the desire to want to do it since God willed it?

But God is not the author of sin! (LOL!)

God foreknew that Adam would choose to sin , He allowed it. He could have moved the tree or kept the snake out of the garden..He could have made Adam in a way that he would have choose not to rebel. But He did not.

So, was it's God's permissive will (God didn't want it to happen or is did God want Adam to sin?

Now, since you have stated that no other will can exist in the Universe but God's, it must have been God's directive will for Adam to sin.

So, your words like 'choice' are usual Calvinistic double talk meaning nothing.

Since that sin no man has enjoyed the same free will that Adam had. None of us can choose to walk with God in the garden. None of us want to untill we are born again..not of corruptabe seed (Adam) but incorruptible (Christ). Then we can hear and see and respond

Well, how 'Arminian' you sound!

That is not the issue now is it?

The issue is God's eternal Decree that decided how every will would act and behave so what is all this talk about 'choice' and 'want', according to Calvinism (and your article) we are just very sophisicated robots.

Stop talking like an Arminian, and just come out and say, God is responsible for everything good and bad and praise your 'Allah' god!

[zadok]

Praise God that He is sovereign. Why do some not recognize that sovereignty? Because God has given them strong delusion, that they may believe a lie.

[zadok]

Sin wouldn't exist unless God allowed it...

[zadok]

"God is responsible for everything"

Yep, He is. Praise His Holy Name.

[theAmbassador]

Bump for a later read!

[RnMomof7]

Dec..Adam had TOTAL Free will .....absolute free will ..no "bent toward sin" ....NO "original sin" ......

He had absolute free will. And he chose to sin. All of us were there with him .

God allowed that sin..just as he allows yours..BUT He could stop that sin IF He chose. God chose to allow Adam to sin . He foreknew it and could have stopped it or prevented it

Everything that happens is with Gods permission dec or haven't you figured that out yet?

[Hank Kerchief]

"God is responsible for everything"

Yep, He is. Praise His Holy Name.

"A lot of these boys are being brutally raped by their Arab abductors," reported Maria Sliwa, an editor with Freedom Now World News and an expert on Sudan. "This is something very foreign to [the Dinkas]. It's a major stigma for a male to have sex with another male, so these boys are quite shocked when they're dragged into this."

"Women who answer "Muslim" are set free, but typically soldiers gang-rape those who answer "Christian" then cut off their breasts and leave them to die as an example for others."

"Musba then killed five church leaders in front of the gathered villagers. When they refused to convert, he began killing unarmed men, women and children. Some were herded at gunpoint into a hut then run over by a 50-ton, Soviet-made tank. He also herded groups of about a dozen people into a hut, where he asked the first person "Do you renounce Jesus Christ?" Anyone who refused was killed by a three-inch nail driven into the top of the head."

The girl, starved of food and water as she sat helplessly outside a local mosque, was not so lucky. She died nameless, unwanted and unloved, three days later.

Those in the hamlet of Koras Para, in Uttar Pradesh, India, who left her to breathe her last in the sun like a stray dog dressed up their cruelty in the guise of religion.

Being staked to a mosque, they said, would draw the demons from the youngster's soul. If she survived, it would be the will of God. (Your God, huh, zakok?)

The victim had to be willing, had to know what was happening, watch the knife, and not stop it. But even tranquilizers couldn't lull 15-year-old Manju Kumari to her fate. In his police confession, Karmakar says his wife, daughter and three accomplices had to gag Manju and pin her down on the earthen floor before the shrine. In ritual order, Karmakar wafted incense over her, tore off her blue skirt and pink T shirt, shaved her, sprinkled her with holy water from the Ganges and rubbed her with cooking fat. Then chanting mantras to the "mother" goddess Kali, he sawed off Manju's hands, breasts and left foot, placing the body parts in front of a photograph of a blood-soaked Kali idol.

So your God is responsible for these these things. And you praise Him for them.

Disgusting!

[fortheDeclaration]

Dec..Adam had TOTAL Free will .....absolute free will ..no "bent toward sin" ....NO "original sin" ...... He had absolute free will. And he chose to sin. All of us were there with him . God allowed that sin..just as he allows yours..BUT He could stop that sin IF He chose. God chose to allow Adam to sin . He foreknew it and could have stopped it or prevented it Everything that happens is with Gods permission dec or haven't you figured that out yet?

Hey, Rnmomof7 you are now contradicting yourself and talking about a 'permissive' will that does not exist in Calvinism!

Was it God's 'Directive' will (He wanted it to happen) or was it God's 'permissive' will, He allowd it to happen even though He did not want it to happen?

So stop going back and forth and choose whether you are going to be a Calvinist or an Arminian!

Calvinists do not teach that anything happens unless God wanted it to happen!

That is exactly what the article you just posted said, the one by Pink you posted said! Here is the Calvinistic double-talk!

So, mightly, therefore are the works of God, so gloriously and equisitely perfect in every instance of His will, tht by a marvellous and ineffable plan of operation perculiar to Himself, as the 'All wise God' that cannot be done without His will, which is even contrary to His will because it could not be done without His permitting it to be done, which permission is evidently not contrary to His will but according to His will'(Calvin quoting Augustine in 'On the Eternal Predestination of God', edit,Fuller, p.185)

Now, you can go along and play your own mind games deluding yourself on what Calvinism actually teaches, just like 'Jean' does on Predestination (Double vs Single), but that is all it is simple delusion ignoring what your system actually teaches about God!

If you are going to be a Calvinist be one and stop trying to talk like an Arminian.

[scottiewottie]

He knew God ..He heard Him and walked with Him..and yet he chose to rebel .

No, not exactly! Adam because of his love, devotion, valiance, obedience, intelligence, and foreordination, did everything in his life, both before and after the fall, to have his obedience accredited to God as righteousness. Never was there a time when Adam rebeled. Because he knew God, because he walked with God, because he heard God, Adam desired nothing less than being with God for all eternity.

When given the situtation that Eve was deceived, Adam having no desire at all to be disobedient, being by his creation the express image of God, even in agency, chose the course for all his posterity that would permit them to live with God.

God did not merely allow it to happen, he expressly commanded that it happen, and for this purpose Adam was foreordained. Adam walking in full obedience with God, knew by his action that death would be the consequence, and that such action was necessary, and was exactly what God wanted him to do.

The devil's big lie is that we can be free moral agents without God. Adam knew that was a lie and even in transgression, was obedient and faithful.

[fortheDeclaration]

Dec..Adam had TOTAL Free will .....absolute free will ..no "bent toward sin" ....NO "original sin" ...... He had absolute free will. And he chose to sin. All of us were there with him .

Agreed! (Romans 5)

God allowed that sin..just as he allows yours..BUT He could stop that sin IF He chose. God chose to allow Adam to sin . He foreknew it and could have stopped it or prevented it

Agreed! But did He will (allow it) even though it was against His will or was it what He wanted? Everything that happens is with Gods permission dec or haven't you figured that out yet?

We accept the 'permissive' will of God knowing that sin and evil are against God's will, but He allows them because He has given man free will.

Your view is that everything that has happened good and bad is due to God wanting it a Directive will, not a permissive will.

You yourself said there cannot be two wills in the Universe, so Adam must not have been going against God's will when he sinned.

God not only 'permitted' it, God wanted it since (as Pink, who you gushed over) stated that even unconsciously man is controlled by God's will.

Which is it?

Does man have the ability to do something that God does not want to happen (sin) and which He allows, or is everything directly and indirectly the result of God's sovereign, eternal, directive will.

Calvinists take great efforts to hide what they really believe in this area since they know it makes God the author of sin, but in the end when you cut away the 'secondary causes' and the 'breaking of the commandments' and move into the Eternal Decree, it is all God's directive will.

[zadok]

God is responsible for EVERYTHING. He is God, after all. Nothing that exists could exist without Him.

God IS responsible for the atrocities in the article you posted. He didn't have to allow those things to occur, but He did.

Unless they repent, those that committed the atrocities will be severely punished come judgment day.

[Hank Kerchief]

God IS responsible for the atrocities in the article you posted.

Are these for His glory? Do you praise Him for them?

Since all of these things, which most men call evil, are God's doing, what exactly is evil?

Hank

[zadok]

Are these for His glory? Do you praise Him for them?

Yep. Romans 9

22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Since all of these things, which most men call evil, are God's doing, what exactly is evil?

The heart of man is evil. God created man. God has mercy on whom He has mercy and He hardens whom He will.

[Hank Kerchief]

The heart of man is evil.

Well, I was really referring to the nature of evil, not an example of something that was evil. So, what is it about the heart of man that is evil? In what way is it evil?

Hank