Praying for the dead [Purgatory]

CIN ^ | Father Brian Van Hove, SJ

[JesseShurun]

Last thought for the night-- we have to be in the ark to be saved, ie in Christ. Christ had no need of saving. All who trust in anyone else will drown in the floods. God bless.

[Theresa]

"If you can pray to the dead, and you feel they hear you, why not the HS. Why do you think the HS will not teach you as he does a pope? Why do you think the pope gets more direction from Him then you would? He/They are certainly not any holier then any other man."

Jesus told his apostles HE WHO HEARS YOU HEARS ME and sent them out to preach the gospel to all nations. They were mere men but if Jesus said that those who hear the apostles hear him, then it means the apostles could not teach error because Jesus would never teach error. They were infallible by a SPECIAL charism of the Holy Spirit. So Becky if YOU taught scripture would those who heard you hear HIM? Or do you admit that the apostles got more direction from the Holy Spirit than you have been given?

[Catholicguy]

Which Protestant scholars are you referencing?

A.T. Robertson "Word Pictures in the New Testament" He says that 2 Timothy 1:16-18 shows Ppaul praying for the dead. "Apparently Onesiphorus in now dead as is implied by the wish (prayer) in 1:18."

As convert David Armstrong points out in "A Biblical Defense of Catholicism," 'And if Paul is wishing (praying) for benefits for ths soul of a dead man, as Robertson holds, how is this essentially any different from praying for the dead?

"The New Bible Commentary," Guthrie, D. and J.A. Motyer say that Onesiphorous was dead.

"Commentary on the Whole Bible" Robert Jamieson, Andrew R. Fausset, David Brown

[drstevej]

Conjecture from a few scholars is hardly compelling exegesis. I'll continue to intercede for the living to the Savior directly.

[Catholicguy]

Conjecture from a few scholars is hardly compelling exegesis. I'll continue to intercede for the living to the Savior directly

How was it that they were misguided by the Holy Spirit to an incorrect exegesis and you were guided by the Holy Spirit to a correct exegesis that contradicts theirs?

I thought Mr. Robinson was a respected gentleman by the Protestants

[drstevej]

AT Robertson is a good and respected scholar especially on grammar, but he is not a Protestant Pope.

Also, I wasn't aware that Robertson claimed that his view on this passage was directly revealed by the Holy Spirit and that a denial of this view was clear error. Methinks you read too much certainty into his words.

[drstevej]

"Apparently Onesiphorus in now dead as is implied by the wish (prayer) in 1:18."

A.T. Robertson

=====

Sound like old AT is speaking ex cathedra??? No to me. Nice try.

[Catholicguy]

AT Robertson is a good and respected scholar especially on grammar, but he is not a Protestant Pope.

In a way, he is. Protestantism traded one Pope for an infinite number as each individual, I am told, is led by the Holy Spirit to a certain and true understanding of Scripture.

Also, I wasn't aware that Robertson claimed that his view on this passage was directly revealed by the Holy Spirit and that a denial of this view was clear error. Methinks you read too much certainty into his words.

Well then, how does one know when he is serious or not? I am serious. How does one know which is the correct meaning of scripture when you and other protestant scholars come to such directly contradictory views on such an important issue?

[Catholicguy]

Sound like old AT is speaking ex cathedra??? No to me. Nice try

Well then, who does speak ex cathedra for protestants? Luther used to say his was the final word. Calvin used to say his was the final word. Others have made similar claims and yet contradicted one another about the same points of Doctrine. So, who does speak "ex cathedra?"

[RnMomof7]

If you left at 8

I do not think it was a "choice" and actually a bit of an untruth to present yourself as a "presbyterian" convert to Catholism..You never were a Calvinist Presbytrerian

I am sorry that you deny the sufficency of the sacrifice of Christ for you..You try by works and I will go on Faith..I do not believe we will be in the same place for eternity

[Catholicguy]

I do not believe we will be in the same place for eternity

LMAO Congratulations, Tantumergo, you have now been officially (rhetorically) Baptised a Freeper-Catholic by RnMom. You are going to Hell. She has told me I am going to Hell and she has told many other Freepr-Catholics the same, so, we will organise a golf tournament or something when we get there :)

Welcome aboard and please don't rock the boat, Charon is just getting underway :)

[Catholicguy]

I do not believe we will be in the same place for eternity

LMAO Congratulations, Tantumergo, you have now been officially (rhetorically) Baptised a Freeper-Catholic by RnMom. You are going to Hell. She has told me I am going to Hell and she has told many other Freepr-Catholics the same, so, we will organise a golf tournament or something when we get there :)

Welcome aboard and please don't rock the boat, Charon is just getting underway :)

BTW, why did you have the audacity to think you could describe what used to be your Faith in your own words? Good Lord, Sir. This is Calvin Country and I don't mean Calvin Klein either :)

You have got to learn that Calvinists not only authoritatively describe their Faith,they describe the faith of others. For instance, they tell Catholics repeatedly that St. Augustine was actually the first Calvinist, or words to that effect. They do have trouble though, when it comes to Purgatory, I think, because those Ordained to Perfection, really aren't, if St Augustine is a Calvinist, becuase St. Augustine believed in Purgatory.

Oh well, such is life in Freeperville. You will like it here, I hope and I am certainly benefiting from your presence even if you haven't been honest:)

[RnMomof7]

I also just wanted to point out that Paul was teaching who Christ was

  Context

  Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

He is not talking about souls coming out of purgatory He is speaking of Christ Resurection from the dead. ...The promise to all those that are His.

    He rose first so that we too may rise..there is NO purgatory in that.There is no purgatory anywhere in scripture.

     Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

     Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

     Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

     Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

     Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:   

  Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.   

  Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

     Col 1:19   For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;   

  Col 1:20   And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

     Col 1:21   And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

     Col 1:22   In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

    

[RnMomof7]

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I am not the one that says man can not work his way to heaven..God says it..your argument is withthe word of God not me

It is nice to attempt to paint that as a Calvinist position..as a Calvinist I am always happy to be associated with the word of God and not men

BUT the truth is every protestant that is saved ..Armenian or Calvinist or any shade inbetween will tell you the same thing..Men are saved by grace not works

2Ti 1:9   Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

  Rom 4:5   But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 9:11   (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Rom 11:6   And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Gal 2:16   Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Tantumergo]

"You never were a Calvinist Presbytrerian"

No I have never come across PesbyTRERians but I was evangelised back into the PresbyTERian ecclesial community when I was 21 by two great chaps working with a university outreach - an American Presbyterian and an Anglican evangelical who was most definitely Calvinist.

After the NT and OT I ploughed into the Institutes of the Christian Religion, Confessions of St. Augustine (who at the time I believed was a prototype of Calvin, tee hee!)Westminster Confession etc. and if I was not a Calvinist then I don't know what else I could have been. As is the wont of students in London, our household would stay up til the early hours discussing whether pre-destination rendered evangelisation superfluous and other such mindless topics.

So I am quite familiar with the defensive tactics used when someone either "loses their faith", or becomes an episcopalian etc. Much like you, we would sit in judgement on them and declare that "they could not have been saved in the first place". In fact there was such a rash of Christian Union presidents losing the faith at our college that it became quite a cliche, and always our reaction was "THEY WERE NEVER SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE" because it didn't fit into our neat little formulas necessited by absolute conviction in double pre-destination.

However, I was not one of those Calvinists who believed that evangelisation wasn't necessary (probably makes me a liberal in your book), as I firmly believed in the importance of saving Catholics particularly from their superstitious, idolatrous religion. You see I wasn't brought up in the cosy tolerance of the good ole US of A where (excepting the likes of the KKK) people can live in reasonable security in their religions, but in an area where Catholics were not only scum, but they were Christ killers. (The Jews might have killed him 2,000 years ago but our minister told us that it was the papists who thought they were killing him every day in their blasphemous Mass. It had to be true because they still hung him on the cross outside their churches!). Even though I might have lost any real belief at a tender age, I was still a tribal protestant like most of the local kids and Catholics were the enemy. So we would stone the buses taking the kids to the Catholic school and we would ambush the ones who walked. We would throw bricks through the windows of the Micks and the Paddy's and put excrement through their letter boxes.

When I received a real faith in Christ and "baptism in the Holy Spirit" I still knew that those damned papists needed saving because they were still saying their Masses and gawping at their bread, worshipping their statues and the pope instead of Christ. That's why I got stuck into evangelisation among Catholics. Most of them knew nothing about their own religion and were so easy to convince about the truths of sola fide and sola scriptura, but there was one girl who I got quite close to and she was just so stubborn! It was so hard to argue with her because she didn't know why she believed anything - she just knew she had to believe it and that's all there was to it. So I set out on a mission to get this one and I was going to prove every one of her superstitious beliefs wrong and show her in the bible where it said so.

Silly me, I actually got a book about what Catholics really believed instead of what I thought they believed and was up night after night reading the bible to find the proofs I needed. I prayed to the Holy Spirit asking him to help me lead her to the truth and to show me how to do it, and the more and more I read the bible the more and more proof I found that the Catholics had got it right all along. Reading Exodus 12 alongside John 6 was when the truth about the Mass and the Blessed Sacrament hit me like a ton of bricks and the scales fell from my eyes, and I knew that I, and, for the last 400 years, my country had been robbed of the greatest thing this side of heaven!!

The rest from there is really quite predictable as it always is when someone learns the truth about the Mass and falls head over heals in love with Our Lord all over again - I came HOME.

Despite my parents' devastation ("Why do you want to worship Mary instead of Jesus?") they only stopped talking to me for a short while - it was other members of my family that haven't spoken to me in years that were probably more hurt - none of them has ever made the accusation:

"You never were a Calvinist Presbytrerian."

But I expect you know best, because I know what you mean, I used to mean the same thing, and some of the guys I used to go doorknocking with have said the same kind of thing - but never to my face!! The guys that is who are not now spending their Sunday mornings bread-gawping and teaching their kids to sing "Tantum ergo sacramentum veneremur cernui...."

The fact that you can say: "You try by works and I will go on Faith." shows that either you were another one of those Catholics who didn't understand "squat" about the Catholic FAITH (most still don't) or you have so little integrity, so little Faith, Hope and Love, that you definitely should be worried about not being in Heaven for eternity.

REPENT AND BELIEVE IN THE GOSPEL - COME HOME

[RnMomof7]

However, I was not one of those Calvinists who believed that evangelisation wasn't necessary (probably makes me a liberal in your book), as I firmly believed in the importance of saving Catholics particularly from their superstitious, idolatrous religion.

Actually only Hyper Calvinists believe that ..

I do understand "squat" Born and raised.

And I know this..If you believe you have to pay for your own sin. Either with confessional penance, or beating yourself with a cat and nine tails.....or burning it off in purgatory..it is about you and not about Jesus Christ.....you deny the atonement and plan to work your way in

That my friend will never work..cause God says it will never work..

[Catholicguy]

Smashing post,Tantumergo. My current Pastor is a convert from So. Baptism and he read his way into the Church whle at UChicago. He has MANY family members and relatives that refuse to speak with him. So sad. My heart breaks for him

It is intersting that the protestants that I know who have converted do not display hatred towards their former Communions, they are greatful for the truths it taught them etc, but, Ex Catholics seem riven with animosity and appear driven post the most inane invective against their former Communion. C'est le Vie.

Excellent post. You are knowledgable and you have a sense of humor...very dangerous...kep yer head down :)

[Tantumergo]

"LMAO Congratulations, Tantumergo, you have now been officially (rhetorically) Baptised a Freeper-Catholic by RnMom."

Thanks for the congratulations Catholicguy - good thing there's no infallibility for Calvinists isn't it or we would all be in deep doodoo.

"You have got to learn that Calvinists not only authoritatively describe their Faith,they describe the faith of others."

I know, and I can only plead guilty to having done the same thing when I was an impetuous youth, and to be fair, in the course of polemic, I must admit that on occasion I have knowingly misrepresented others' beliefs while posting on Freeper, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. But sometimes the things that people say just seem to invite it - the temptation is so irresistible - and I am so weak!!

"they tell Catholics repeatedly that St. Augustine was actually the first Calvinist"

Guilty again!! I used to do exactly the same thing and that was after having read his Confessions!! In one sense it seems hysterically funny now, but in another its quite frightening because you begin to appreciate how deep the roots of prejudice and hatred can go.

Still what did Our Lord say: "blessed are those..."

[Tantumergo]

"And I know this..If you believe you have to pay for your own sin. Either with confessional penance, or beating yourself with a cat and nine tails.....or burning it off in purgatory..it is about you and not about Jesus Christ.....you deny the atonement and plan to work your way in"

You are hoist by your own petard, madam - you prove that you know nothing about what the Catholic Church teaches regarding salvation. If you want it in a slogan or a sound bite it is this:

"SOLA GRATIA"

(Probably spelt it wrong now!!)

Everything is grace - our faith is a free gift of God, our salvation is a free gift of God, and even our good works are as a result of God's grace moving us to perform them. We CANNOT DO ANY GOOD WORK WITHOUT GRACE including believing in the gospel.

The "Catholicism" you believed is obviously very different from the real thing. If as a Catholic you had the approach of planning to "work your way in" then you were a Pelagian, not a Catholic.

[RnMomof7]

Catholics are semi Pelagian...........and I do know that

Catholics fully recognize that Jesus Christ died on the Cross for their sins and thus ``opened the gates of Heaven,'' and that salvation is a free gift which no amount of human good deeds could ever earn. Catholics receive Christ's saving and sanctifying grace, and Christ Himself, into their souls when they are baptized. Yet they also know that Christ has established certain conditions for entry into eternal happiness in Heaven--for example, receiving His true Flesh and Blood (John 6:54) and keeping the commandments(Matt. 19:17). If a Christian refuses or neglects to obey Our Lord's commands in a grave matter (that is, if he commits a mortal sin), Our Lord will not remain dwelling in his soul; and if a Christian dies in that state, having driven his Lord from his soul by serious sin, he will not be saved. As St. Paul warned the Galatians with regard to certain sins: ``They who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.'' (Gal. 5:21). It must be added that Christ will always forgive and return to a sinner who approaches Him with sincerity in the Sacrament of Penance.

Jesus made it possible BUT you have to earn it..WORKS