Praying for the dead [Purgatory]

CIN ^ | Father Brian Van Hove, SJ

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

three points on the matter which the Catholic Church insists:

The problem with this is though, that God doesn't insist on three points. His was is one point.

John 6:29 Jesus said this is the work of God, believe on him who he has sent.

Rom. 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thy heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved.

Him sending you to purgatory sounds a little conditional, a condition I don't see anywhere in scripture, especially not in the verses quoted from 1 Cor.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Sorry I did not catch that you were the same one I posted the other response too. I thought that was Smedly Butler. See ya later:)

Becky

[JMJ333]

I don't see anything that would be in confliction with the verses you quoted. Being saved and purified are two different matters. Between the sinfulness of this life and the glories of heaven, we must be made pure.

[JMJ333]

Okay! Have a good time at church!

[Sock]

Thanks FTW,

I must admit, I rarely read anything from the NCCB unless it's posted at FR.

The painful loss which even the righteous will experience in the afterlife is brought forward with especial clarity in 1 Corinthians, where Paul tells us:

"Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become manifest; for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Corinthians 3:12-15).

This clearly applies to the saved, for Paul says so ("he himself will be saved"), but it does not indicates that this life-review will be fun, for Paul also says, the person in question's work "is burned up" and "he will suffer loss" and though he will be saved, it will be "only as through fire." Needless to say, seeing ones life's work go up in flames, suffering loss when one was expecting to "receive a reward" and escaping through the flames is not fun.

Thus the day on which we receive our particular judgment at the end of life will not be fun to the extent our works are not good. This clearly shows the reality of pain and discomfort after death but before the inauguration of the eternal order.

Now some Protestants try a dodge to get around this passage by saying that it is our works which are tested. It is true that on the surface of this passage. Paul does say our works will be tested by fire. However, this changes nothing since we will existentially feel it as our works are tested and consumed. That is why Paul says one whose works survive will "receive a reward" -- something he will feel -- and one whose works are consumed will suffer loss -- again, something he will feel.

Thus Paul caps the passage by saying that the saved one who suffers loss will be saved "only as through fire" -- the image being that of a man escaping from a burning building, which is precisely what Paul was talking about -- the local church as a building built by men either with fire-proof materials or materials which will be consumed (read the prior context). Thus the picture is of a man having built up his local church improperly, then seeing his work -- the building he has built -- consumed by fire, so he has to flee from it amid the flames to escape.

Thus while Paul says our works (the building we do) will be tested by fire, he envisions the flames touching us ourselves if our building ignites and we are forced to flee from it. So while under this metaphor in Paul our works are tested, we ourselves feel the consequences of this testing in the most painful way possible, for it is no fun to have to escape from a burning building as the work of your life comes crashing down around you.

Purgatory by James Akin

[rising tide]

Calvin had a mother whipped because she was found praying at the grave of her deceased son. Yikes! Where can I read more about this incident?

[JMJ333]

LOL...I was wondering if mine were the only eyebrows raised. I am sorry not to be more help, but I don't know. We can always try google. I'll let you know if I find anything. ;)

[JMJ333]

I'm going to use the same source as sock, which is James Akin, who is the head apologist at Catholic Answers or [catholicanswers.com] Here is what he has to say:

The concept of an after-death purification from sin and the consequences of sin is also stated in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32.

The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning "until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy" (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7). Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.

Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine.

I will try and find some quotes by early church doctors [from before the bible was put together] to give also as examples.

[Litany]

"O My Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy Mercy."

Whenever I say this prayer I always believe that I am praying for the souls in Purgatory.

[JMJ333]

One of the Fatima prayers! Thanks. And your screen name has reminded me that I have a litany to the poor souls. I will have to find it after I dig up the quotes for Becky. =)

[JMJ333]

And here are the quotes I promised:

""Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more--not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God's righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness." Clement of Alexandria,Stromata,6:14(A.D. 202)

"As often as the anniversary comes round, we make offerings for the dead as birthday honours." Tertullian,The Chaplut,3(A.D. 211)

"[A] woman is more bound when her husband is dead...Indeed,she prays for his soul,and requests refreshment for him meanwhie, and fellowship(with him) in the first resurrection;and she offers(her sacrifice) on the anniversary of his falling asleep." Tertullian, On Monogamy,10(A.D. 216)

"When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." Gregory of Nyssa,Sermon on the Dead,PG 13:445,448 (A.D. 394)

The rest of the quotes can be found here.

[Dajjal]

Souls in Purgatory bump

[JMJ333]

The just shall be in everlasting remembrance;
He shall not fear the evil hearing.

V. Absolve, O Lord, the souls of the faithful departed from every bond of sin,
R. And by the help of Thy grace may they be enabled to escape the avenging judgment, and to enjoy the happiness of eternal life. Lord, have mercy.

Because their present suffering is greates in the knowledge of the pain that their separation from Thee is causing Thee, Lord, have mercy.

Because of their present inability to add to Thy accidental glory,

Lord, have mercy.

Not for our consolation, O Lord; not for their release from purgative pain, O God; but for Thy joy and the greater accidental honor of Thy throne, O Christ the King,

Lord, have mercy.

Response: grant light and peace, O Lord.

For the souls of our departed friends, relations and benefactors,
For those of our family who have fallen asleep in Thy bosom, O Jesus,
For those who have gone to prepare our place,
For those who were our brothers and sisters in Religion,
For priests who were our spiritual directors,
For men or women who were our teachers in school,
For those who were our employers (or employees),
For those who were our associates in daily toil,
For any soul whom we ever offended,
For our enemies now departed,
For those souls who have none to pray for them,
For those forgotten by their friends and kin,
For those now suffering the most,
For those who have acquired the most merit,
For the souls next to be released from Purgatory,
For those who, while on earth, were most devoted to God the Holy Ghost, to Jesus in the Most Blessed Sacrament, to the holy Mother of God,
For all deceased popes and prelates,
For all deceased priests, seminarians and religious,
For all our separated brethren who deeply loved Thee, and would have come into Thy household had they known the truth,
For those souls who need, or in life asked, our prayers,
For those, closer to Thee than we are, whose prayers we need,

Response: grant them eternal rest, O Lord.

That those may be happy with You forever, who on earth were true models of the Catholic Faith,
That those may be admitted to Thine unveiled Presence, who as far as we know never committed mortal sin,
That those may be housed in glory, who lived always in recollection and prayer,
That those may be given the celestial joy of beholding Thee, who lived lives of mortification and self-denial and penance,
That those may be flooded with Thy love, who denied themselves even Thy favors of indulgence and who made the heroic act for the souls who had gone before them,
That those may be drawn up to the Beatific Vision, who never put obstacles in the way of sanctifying grace and who ever drew closer in mystical union with Thee,

V. Eternal rest give unto them, O Lord,
R. And let perpetual light shine upon them.

Let Us Pray:

Be mindful, O Lord, of Thy servants and handmaids, N. and N., who are gone before us with the sign of faith and repose in the sleep of grace. To the sign of faith and repose in the sleep of grace. To thee, O Lord, and to all who rest in Christ, grant, we beseech Thee, a place of refreshment, light and peace, through the same Christ Our Lord.

R. Amen.

[Litany]

Thank you...this is beautiful. One of the Litanies I don't recall from childhood. I love all of the Litanies; to me they are prayer and Divine poetry.

[BossyRoofer]

If the evolution of life (caterpillar to the butterfly) is GODS example of transition, then the conversation of imagination is eternal. So your not really praying to something dead, just participateing in an evolveing comunication. Please keep praying to GOD he hears you through this evolution.

[JMJ333]

Hello friend, got any good prayers for the dead? =)

[EODGUY]

I maintain the prayer is the essence of Christian love.

[JMJ333]

And selflessness! Its interesting I thought. It does take a certain heroic action to give up prayers meant for you after your death. I bet God pays back 3-fold.

[restornu]

Please no flaming but the LDS do Baptism for the Dead.

[JMJ333]

I'm not going to flame you, rest! And I know that you baptise the dead. Would you like to outline why you do this, and if it has any similarities with orthodox teaching on purgatory? =)