Posted on 07/28/2002 12:34:13 AM PDT by A.J.Armitage
His Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God. C.H. Spurgeon spoke of the concerns that some have about this doctrine thus:
But there are some who say, "It is hard for God to choose some and leave others." Now, I will ask you one question. Is there any of you here this morning who wishes to be holy, who wishes to be regenerate, to leave off sin and walk in holiness? "Yes, there is," says some one, "I do." Then God has elected you. But another says, "No; I don't want to be holy; I don't want to give up my lusts and my vices." Why should you grumble, then, that God has not elected you to it? For if you were elected you would not like it, according to your own confession. If God this morning had chosen you to holiness, you say you would not care for it. Do you not acknowledge that you prefer drunkenness to sobriety, dishonesty to honesty? You love this world's pleasures better than religion; then why should you grumble that God has not chosen you to religion? If you love religion, he has chosen you to it. If you desire it, he has chosen you to it. If you do not, what right have you to say that God ought to have given you what you do not wish for? Supposing I had in my hand something which you do not value, and I said I shall give it to such-and-such a person, you would have no right to grumble that I did not give to you. You could not be so foolish as to grumble that the other has got what you do not care about. According to your own confession, many of you do not want religion, do not want a new heart and a right spirit, do not want the forgiveness of sins, do not want sanctification; you do not want to be elected to these things: then why should you grumble? You count these things but as husks, and why should you complain of God who has given them to those whom he has chosen? If you believe them to be good and desire them, they are there for thee. God gives liberally to all those who desire; and first of all, he makes them desire, otherwise they never would. If you love these things, he has elected you to them, and you may have them; but if you do not, who are you that you should find fault with God, when it is your own desperate will that keeps you from loving these things—your own simple self that makes you hate them? Suppose a man in the street should say, "What a shame it is I cannot have a seat in the chapel to hear what this man has to say." And suppose he says, "I hate the preacher; I can't bear his doctrine; but still it's a shame I have not a seat." Would you expect a man to say so? No: you would at once say, "That man does not care for it. Why should he trouble himself about other people having what they value and he despises?" You do not like holiness, you do not like righteousness; if God has elected me to these things, has he hurt you by it? "Ah! but," say some, "I thought it meant that God elected some to heaven and some to hell." That is a very different matter from the gospel doctrine. He has elected men to holiness and to righteousness and through that to heaven. You must not say that he has elected them simply to heaven, and others only to hell. He has elected you to holiness, if you love holiness. If any of you love to be saved by Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ elected you to be saved. If any of you desire to have salvation, you are elected to have it, if you desire it sincerely and earnestly. But, if you don't desire it, why on earth should you be so preposterously foolish as to grumble because God gives that which you do not like to other people?
And guess what go read the James chapter that is exactly what he is saying..we are to have our faith manifest in our lives
That does not save us. It reflects our salvation
Dave failure to do them will not result in a loss of salvation...but it will result in God not being able to use us here and so there wil be less responsibilites in His Kingdom..
Dave, do you know that you are saved? Do you know that you will persevere to the end? Or, are you fearful that you will go on a "killing spree"? Remember:
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. - I John 5:13
This is your assumption, your premise. Is there absolutely no good whatsoever in a pagan society?
SD
I'm not exactly "fearful" of that, but certainly you are not going to tell me that no person ever considered themselves "elect" and then fell off the wagon?
I will know I am saved when I persevere. The same as everybody else. And we won't know that until we are done.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. - I John 5:13
Try that highlighting. "Those that believe" will be those that obey. "Belief" is not something that happens one day and is guaranteed forever. If you stop obeying, you have stopped believing. Then this promise means nothing. You are only assured as long as you persevere.
SD
Nope. (At least in the eyes of God.)
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. - Isaiah 64:6
Note that it is "our righteousness" that looks to God as bloody, smelly, menstrual rags. Makes you wonder what our sin and degradation looks like to Him.
There are many "good" and "noble" things done by men. The problem, as far as God is concerned, is with motivation. Wht motivates someone to do "good"? If it is for their own prestige, honor, self-fulfillment, etc. then it is a form of self-righteousness that is a stench to the Almighty.
Then, in your opinion, John wasn't speaking of "eternal" life, but rather something different, perhaps "potential eternal life". I am just naive enough to believe that knowing that I have "eternal life" means that I have "eternal life" without end.
Don't you trust God to keep you secure in His hands?
You just said to me a little while ago that God does not will and desire the salvation of all men everywhere without exception. Now, you tell me that God offered them salvation.
Right. What is the problem? I don't believe God makes us offers we can't refuse. I don't buy your premise that God's grace is irresistible. I believe man is free to accept or not. God offers to all men sufficient grace to acheive salvation.
Some men refuse this grace and this is their fault, not God's.
God saves man. Man damns himself.
So, what motivates God if it is not a will and desire to see them saved; a presentation of their hatred of Him in their refusal and their securing their own damnation? You tell us!
Here we get into more complex ideas than we can sometimes explain. On one level we say if God "wills" something it will be so. But in this case God has limited Himself. This is what giving us a true free will is all about, God refusing to impose His will upon us. Letting us be free to choose and not interfering with our decisions.
Os, in that way I can say that God "wills," or perhaps "prefers" is a better word, that all men be saved. But He does not impose that will.
SD
Try reading it again. I was not questioning what "eternal life" meant. I was questioning the class of people that this reassurance was given to. I even italicised the part I was talking about.
"Belief" does not mean that one gave an intellectual assent to the need for Christ to save them one day in 1972.
Belief is something that happens every day, and is reflected in our actions. If we don't behave, the promise does not apply to us.
SD
LOL
SD
Can you please direct me to even a single solitary verse of Scripture that says: "I am the Lord your God. I value the free-will of my created dirt so much that I will limit Myself so as not to impose My will upon them." (Even a close approximation would suffice. I haven't found a single non-Calvinist that could direct me to such a verse.)
You really need to be more careful. Where did I say that I "gave an intellectual assent to the need for Christ to save" me back in 1972?
It was on that day that I was "born again" and given a new heart that panted for God like a deer pants after water. My wants, desires, and will were re-engineered, I was indwelt by the Holy Spirit, I was given the "mind of Christ". I repented of my sins, and trusted completely in Jesus Christ as my only savior from sin. I went from being His sworn enemy to being a child of the King. (That is the reason I remember the date. It was a life-changing experience, and no mere "intellectual assent".)
Try Genesis, Adam and Eve.
Didn't God tell them not to eat of the fruit? If their eating of the fruit was really His will, then He lied when He told them not to eat it.
Since He instead let them choose their own path, and live with the consequences, we must conclude that He respects their ability to make choices.
He did not make them with the impossibility of disobedience.
SD
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