Posted on 07/28/2002 12:34:13 AM PDT by A.J.Armitage
If everything is "forordained" then we have absolutely no control over the situation. Our choices mean nothing and the idea of a "free will" is mocked.
This viewpoint takes a small amount of the Truth (God's sovereignity) and then considers it to be the only Truth. The end result is a people certain and pleased at their own election or people convinced that they are damned.
There is nothing good to come from either attitude, and nothing good to come from insisting that we have no part to play in our salvation or damnation.
SD
Exactly. But the Calvinist is so hung up on God being Sovereign that they eliminate our will from the picture entirely.
SD
Are you advocating a works salvation?
I believe faith without works is dead, n'est-ce pas?
Remember the parable of the talents? Though the talent is not ours, but is rather "on loan from God," we are still expected to make something of it. And we will be judged on how well we do this.
SD
I would say that the Apostle Paul had it correct in Ephesians 2:8-10. First grace, then faith, then good works. You appear to want to reverse the order in your agreement with Festa.
I have no idea. This is asking "what motivates God," and I can nto answer that. I don't know why He decided to Create and why He created what He did. But I am thankful.
The Bible has the answer! It spells it out for anyone who desires to know just exactly why He Created and just exactly why He does all that he does.
For His Glory!
Sounds awful selfish to me. God wants praise and created a race of sycophants to tell Him how good He is?
But that is not what praise is all about. To reduce praise to that is to be like this:
Isa 29:13 (Mat 15:8) Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Praise is that which a man naturally does for that object/person which is his great delight and need:
Psa 63:1 O God, thou [art] my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirsteth for thee, my flesh longeth for thee in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is;...
My soul shall be satisfied as [with] marrow and fatness; and my mouth shall praise [thee] with joyful lips: When I remember thee upon my bed, [and] meditate on thee in the [night] watches.
That which consumes you is that which you will praise and that which you will seek with you whole heart.
To what end do you praise God; "to tell Him how good He is?" Or is it an end in and of itself--is praise a spontaneous outpouring of a deep satisfaction of all that God is for us in Christ Jesus?
Jesus is our glorious Servant. How can that possibly be selfish?
God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him. -- John Piper
"Choosing good," or allowing God to work through us, is not synonymous with salvation. It is, however necessary for our salvation to persevere, for us to "work out our salvation" as Paul writes.
Of course, if you believe in salvation as a one time irreversible deal, this is all nonsense to you.
I would say that the Apostle Paul had it correct in Ephesians 2:8-10. First grace, then faith, then good works. You appear to want to reverse the order in your agreement with Festa.
Who said I wanted to reverse anything. Rather, I insist that all are necessary. You can't stop at faith, you must have works.
SD
My disagrement with this statement would be thus:
1. Salvation is irreversible. If not, it is not salvation.
2. Who said anything about "one time"? My salvation began in the heart of God before the foundation of the world, was purchased at the cross, was guaranteed at the empty tomb, was granted to me on July 24, 1972, continues as He sanctifies me, and will be culminated in the future at His return or my death, whichever comes first. As such, it is a process that God is directing from beginning to end. He has placed His seal upon me by placing His Spirit within me.
3. Nonsense? I know that I will perform the works that God previously ordained that I should perform. It appears that those who deny His election to salvation cannot agree with any election to good works.
You are the one who said "exactly" to the statement: "If we choose the good, we are saved.".
In other words: salvation is the result of "choosing good".
I would say: "choosing good" is the result of salvation.
See the difference in order?
I think that he provides a counter-balance also, but his criticisms would be more effective if he would not soil his reputation by associating with Holocaust Revisionists. He blows his own credibility with those stunts.
This viewpoint takes a small amount of the Truth (God's sovereignity) and then considers it to be the only Truth
What truth is greater and could I have a scripitual reference that there is a greater truth
In other words: salvation is the result of "choosing good".
Not solely the result of choosing the good, no. But choosing good is required or we will not be saved. Period. No matter how sincere you felt when you "Accepted Jesus as your Savior." If you don't behave, you don't get saved.
I would say: "choosing good" is the result of salvation.
I am sure you would. Cause you think salvation happens the minute you ask for it, and that your subsequent actions dont' mean a thing. I can't agree with that.
See the difference in order?
Sure. But like I said twice already, it has to do with whether you think yo are saved by a one time decision, or by a lifetime of decisions. The views are irreconcilable.
SD
God has given man free will..go back and read what I wrote you Dave one more time
Your free will is subject to HIS choices for you
Do you let Sarah have absolute free choice or do you set the parameters?
I ask you again Dave can you change your mind half way down in a free fall from the Empire State building or is your absolute free will than subject to the higher law of gravity?
No one will be in hell that did not choose to go there..
My disagrement with this statement would be thus:
1. Salvation is irreversible. If not, it is not salvation.
According to your theory. Both mine and your theologies account for the backslider. Yours does so by putting into question everyone's "claim" to be saved. They might not be genuine.
We simply do not know who is "saved," who will persevere, until the end.
2. Who said anything about "one time"? My salvation began in the heart of God before the foundation of the world, was purchased at the cross, was guaranteed at the empty tomb, was granted to me on July 24, 1972, continues as He sanctifies me, and will be culminated in the future at His return or my death, whichever comes first. As such, it is a process that God is directing from beginning to end. He has placed His seal upon me by placing His Spirit within me.
Hello? What is this date, if not what you view as a one time thing? Hello?
Don't you consider salvation to be a one time irreversible deal?
3. Nonsense? I know that I will perform the works that God previously ordained that I should perform.
That's convenient. Whatever you decide to do, God pre-ordained it, and none of it matters one whit to your salvation. No matter Calvinism is so attractive.
It appears that those who deny His election to salvation cannot agree with any election to good works.
This is gobbledygook.
SD
Huh? Are you a Mormon now?
What truth is greater and could I have a scripitual reference that there is a greater truth
How about Job? How about the Truth that we can never fully understand God's way? Insisting that His exercise of His Sovereignity is the main point to understand, the key to interpreting the entire mystery is just wrong. There are other perspectives.
SD
the only leg that the works based faith folks have..one problem dave is the scripture is not speaking about getting saved..it is talking about how the world sees our faith not God
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew
Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
From Matthew Henry
When Paul says that a man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the law (Rom. 3:28), he plainly speaks of another sort of work than James does, but not of another sort of faith. Paul speaks of works wrought in obedience to the law of Moses, and before men’s embracing the faith of the gospel; and he had to deal with those who valued themselves so highly upon those works that they rejected the gospel (as Rom. 10, at the beginning most expressly declares);
but James speaks of works done in obedience to the gospel, and as the proper and necessary effects and fruits of sound believing in Christ Jesus.
Both are concerned to magnify the faith of the gospel, as that which alone could save us and justify us; but Paul magnifies it by showing the insufficiency of any works of the law before faith, or in opposition to the doctrine of justification by Jesus Christ; James magnifies the same faith, by showing what are the genuine and necessary products and operations of it
I agree completely. I do not agree that they are there because God simply did not desire to give them the grace to be saved. That God wants them to be damned. That God is pleased that they failed Him.
No, they are there because they turned their back on God, refused His offer of salvation. Not because God turned His back on them and refused to offer salvation.
SD
Where have I said that? Am I not the one who has been speaking about the good works that God ordained for me to perform? I believe that your argument is with antinomians, not with Calvinists.
Did you forget my # 108?
Not according to Ephesians Two.
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