Does God force you to believe or can you resist? Irresistible Grace -- Not a Bible Teaching.

If you have followed my posts over the past months, I think you will acknowledge that I have encouraged civility in the discussion between Arminians and Calvinists. Initially I sought to do this online but found that doing it via freep mail was more effective since I have no authority to require civility. So the questions regarding civility should be directed to others, unless you have a specific question of me in that regard.

That being said, I don't think these discussions are trvial. Some on both sides see this as the discussion between two opposite gospels and anathematize those in the other camp. I do not, so direct these questions to those who do. I see this as a family discussion, but a needed discussion none the less for the following reasons:

[1] Truth is not incidental. These discussion revolve around the character of God, the condition of man, and the provision of salvation. None of these are "did Adam have a navel" trivialities. The Bible says that the Father seeks those who worship Him in spirit and truth. It matters to Him. This alone makes the discussion highly significant.

[2] God's Glory is not trivial. These discussions are a clash between a theo-centric perspective and an anthro-pocentric perspective. Is it ultimately about Him or is it about me? As an Arminian, I was a Christian. However, as an Arminian I took credit for things I now praise Him for. That is a significant step forward! I desire others to magnify the Lord with me.

[3] Understanding sovereign grace has been a personal blessing that I desire for others. As my understanding of the doctrines of grace solidified there was a corresponding deepening of my walk with Christ. Knowing my father in Heaven is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, sovereign, holy, just loving, wise, etc. increases my trust and dependance upon Him. My God does what HE pleases and I find that comforting. My God is not overruled by the will of His creatures. If I acknowledge this, I am more inclined to trust Him rather than contend with Him.

I now understand that I am accepted in the Beloved. The righteousnesss of Christ clothes me granting me eternal life. The righteousness of Christ is being wrought in me and is gaining wreaths (stephanos) that are a reward that glorifies Him.

This post does not speak for Calvinists per se. It is my personal response to your valid questions. Others are free to agree or disagree with me whether they be Arminian or Calvinist.

We should get along, but not at the expense of truth. Where I have not spoken the truth in love, I am out of line. But love requires that I be direct at times. Love is not antithetical to rebuke. Jesus was no Rodney King -- read the Gospels again. Our culture says all judgmentalism is wrong especially when on the lips of Christians. Our culture is perverted and desperately needs some clarifications and some rebuke.

Lurkers on these threads may superficially say this is just a religious spat, or they may just get a glimpse of a sovereign God Who is worth taking seriously! God determines what their response will be. Now, that's encouraging!

[3] Understanding sovereign grace has been a personal blessing that I desire for others. As my understanding of the doctrines of grace solidified there was a corresponding deepening of my walk with Christ. Knowing my father in Heaven is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, sovereign, holy, just loving, wise, etc. increases my trust and dependance upon Him. My God does what HE pleases and I find that comforting. My God is not overruled by the will of His creatures. If I acknowledge this, I am more inclined to trust Him rather than contend with Him.

I think this is an important point. When I read the arminian positions, I do not see this at all. This is a natural outflow when you understand the doctrine of grace. Knowing God is God is a great comfort.

Ok, so if Arminians are Christians and Calvinists are Christians, then what is the big deal?

Not all in these discussions are saved. There are those who act like spiritual tares and there are those who act like chaff. Tares we are to leave alone by the advise of the Lord for He intends to burn them.

However, Arminianism does tend to sow both tares and chaff into the Church by preaching a false gospel.

Is the Gospel when preached by an Arminian less effective than the Gospel when preached by a Calvinist?

Like I said, Arminianism sows tares and chaff into the Church. Plus, anyone who preaches the Gospel as an offer is preaching a false Gospel. The gospel is not an offer, but a declaration, a loud trumpet call that the kingdom of God is here. Men are commanded to repent and believe in it.

... we ought to strive more to just "get along."

True, if you will notice perhaps, I do get along with a great many Arminians on FR. Nevertheless, we should not compromise the truth for the sake of getting along.

It does seem odd to me that you would admit that you became a Christian at the preaching of Arminians yet you now claim to be a committed Calvinist. Are you any more saved now since you decided that the systematic theology of Calvinism is somehow better than the systematic theology of Arminianism?

For nearly 14 years, my first 14 years as a Christian, I had to endure false teaching. I left my first church over it when I was old enough to do so. I am certainly better fed today and don't have to worry about sour milk. I am certainly in a closer relationship with the Lord.

The difference is that we believe that one isn't held accountable for sin until one actually commits a sin.

That is exactly what I read and comment on when you accussed me of not reading correctly

You deny that original sin is really sin..there is NO sin attributed to the infant at birth ..till he sins himself

Just like your salvation stand there is NO real salvation in the cross..it is only a potential salvation..

As I said and you mocked you are consistant

You know I sat in meetings where doctrine was discussed and that went right over my head. I heard all about the "bent to sin..and it never occurred to me that REAL ORIGINAL sin was being dismissed as a mere inclination to sin..

If you have possible sin I gues a possible salvation works

Me?? I have a REAL original sin and I need a REAL savior..Thank you God for Jesus

The Belief that God is in Control Comforts the Grieving

Consider for a moment how one’s belief in freewill will affect the way he handles a tragic event, like a sudden death in the family. Pastor and theologian Gregory Boyd, who believes in freewill, comments,

I know Christians frequently speak about “the purpose of God” in the midst of a tragedy caused by someone else. There was a young girl this year at Bethel who was killed by a drunk driver, a lot of students were wondering what purpose God had in “taking her home.” But this I regard to simply be a piously confused way of thinking. The drunk driver alone is to blame for the girl's untimely death. The only purpose of God in the whole thing is His design to allow morally responsible people the right to decide whether to drink responsibly or irresponsibly.

If a Christian believes in freewill, then when a drunk driver takes an innocent life in an automobile accident, there ultimately was no purpose for this action. God was not in control. He could not have prevented the accident from taking place. The Arminian cannot say with Joseph, “You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good” (Gen. 50:20). If we believe that God has given man a sovereign freewill, and that men can botch up God’s plans, then how can we embrace Paul’s confident assertion that, “we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose”(Rom. 8:28)? Which is more comforting: to believe that God has given up control of his creatures and allows them to mess up his plans, or that God is in control of even the evil in the world, and that he is permitting it for a good purpose? After Calvinist John Piper’s mother was tragically killed, he wrote about how his belief in predestination consoled him. Contrast his approach to dealing with suffering and grief to that of Gregory Boyd:

On December 16, 1974, [God] did not save my mother’s life. She was riding with my father on a touring bus toward Bethlehem in Israel. A van with lumber tied on the roof swerved out of its lane and hit the bus head on. The lumber came through the windows and killed my mother instantly. . . . What was my comfort in those days? . . . [There was] the confidence that God is in control and God is good. I take no comfort from the prospect that God cannot control the flight of a four-by-four. For me there is no consolation in haphazardness. Nor in giving Satan the upper hand. As I knelt by my bed and wept, having received the dreaded phone call from my brother-in-law, I never doubted that God was good. I do not need to explain everything. That he reigns and that he loves is enough for now.

In times of crisis, a belief that God is in control brings comfort to the hurting saint. As Piper said, there is no comfort in haphazardness. But there is a deep well of consolation in the fact that nothing in the universe occurs outside of God’s purpose. We can trust God to be in control, and to work even evil events for the good of those who love him. The precious promises of God to ensure that everything works for the good according to his infallible purpose are guarded by the Biblical doctrine of predestination.

Source

Is that you, Corin/Ward?

I don't think Ward is that intellectual sounding :>)

I was wondering if it was the tex mex chicken.

Perhaps YOU need to read it ..It is Paul telling us what we are because of the fall..to do that he goes back and forth from past to present...

***Is that you, Corin/Ward?***

Corin has been off these threads for weeks enjoying the tranquility of other threads. He has asked not to be pinged to these discussions. I think we should honor his wish.

We were guilty in the loins of Adam..

Sadly, many would rather have the comfort of tradition and their "church" camp, and are really afraid to stand for the truth. Many who become very shrill in their defense of their, "doctrine," are only afraid to admit they might have been wrong in accepting human teaching. I never insist that any accept my interpretation of Scripture, because I do not judge another's servant. I am only a man, but I trust in Him who has promised to give wisdom to all those who ask and are willing to follow the truth, no matter how much they don't like it. I would be honored to serve Him with you outside the camp. I am convinced if Jesus should come today, no organized church would receive Him and most "Christians" would hate His teachings.

Hank, recently I've been introduced to the teachings of a group called, "The Way, International". This group is anti-organized Christianity and anti-trinitarian. The Trinity is a interpration of scripture. Can a person be saved without believing that Jesus is God?

"I take no comfort from the prospect that God cannot control the flight of a four-by-four." - John Piper

What a comfort it is to know that God is in total control of all things, whether they be four-by-fours, sparrows, hairs on heads, and grains of sand on ocean beaches.

There is nothing too large to overpower Him, nor too small to escape His notice. He is the sovereign Lord of all the universe.

These discussions are a clash between a theo-centric perspective and an anthro-pocentric perspective

I disagree. I do not believe that the Arminian perspective is an anthro-pocentric perspective nor do I believe that Calvinism is a "theo-centric" perspective. Both camps come from the same perspective, i.e., that THEY have a lock on the "Truth."

Well my observation is that Calvinism can be refuted by a simple reading of the scriptures and that Arminianism can ALSO be refuted by a simple reading of the scriptures. Thus either the scriptures themselves are contradictiory and need a little tweaking from men, (i.e., changing the word "all" to mean "only a few") or the simple fact is that neither side is theologically correct-- that these things are, in fact, mysteries which will only be resolved when we meet the Lord face to face(1 cor 13:12).

The struggle between these two inflexible positions has clearly been a black eye on the body of Christ. I think that both camps are engaged in an ego-centric philosophy on a wholly peripheral issue, both sides insisting that their "interpretation" of the scriptures is correct and that they other side's interpretation is somehow blasphemy and heresy.

IMHO the only emphasis that we should have is spreading the gospel to the lost and reaping in the harvest. That is the great commission. Understanding the process of salvation is not the great commission. Both the Arminians and the Calvinists agree that ultimately salvation is WHOLLY of the Lord. To me it does not matter one whit as to why you think you came to the Lord, what matters solely is whether or not you come to the Lord. If we try too hard to understand the process then I think we will do nothing more than drive a wedge between the bretheren.

I am as guilty as anyone of sowing discord on these threads. For that SIN I must repent. But as with most sins, they looked much worse when others are committing them. Nobody here is going to solve this mystery. Frankly I was a Christian for 30 years before I ever got into a discussion on these issues. I think that for the most part these discussions have no spiritual value other than to tear apart the foundations of our faith. When the name-calling kicks in and when the deliberate misinterpretations of others comments start, then literally all HELL can break loose on these threads.

It is my opinion that this entire debate is stirred in the cauldrons of hell and has been since its inception. Neither the Calvinists nor the Arminians are better Christians for their inflexible stands. The truth is that nobody has a lock on the truth, especially in those areas where we see through a glass darkly.

So Steve, are you really a "better" Christian because you shifted from Arminianism to Calvinism? Or are you still just another sinner saved by grace?

"What a comfort it is to know that God is in total control of all things, whether they be four-by-fours, sparrows, hairs on heads, and grains of sand on ocean beaches."

1. Q. What is your only comfort in life and death?
A. That I am not my own,[1] but belong with body and soul, both in life and in death,[2] to my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ.[3] He has fully paid for all my sins with His precious blood, and has set me free from all the power of the devil.[5] He also preserves me in such a way[6] that without the will of my heavenly Father not a hair can fall from my head;[7] indeed, all things must work together for my salvation.[8] Therefore, by His Holy Spirit He also assures me of eternal life[9] and makes me heartily willing and ready from now on to live for Him.[10]
[1] I Cor. 6:19, 20 [2] Rom. 14:7-9. [3] I Cor. 3:23; Tit. 2:14. [4] I Pet. 1:18, 19; I John 1:7; 2:2. [5] John 8:34-36; Heb. 2:14, 15; I John 3:8. [6] John 6:39, 40; 10:27-30; II Thess. 3:3; I Pet. 1:5. [7] Matt. 10:29-31; Luke 21:16-18. [8] Rom. 8:28. [9] Rom. 8:15, 16; II Cor. 1:21, 22; 5:5; Eph. 1:13, 14. [10] Rom. 8:14.
[Q&A 1 of the Heidelberg Catechism, 1563]

Yes! What comfort indeed!

"There is nothing too large to overpower Him, nor too small to escape His notice. He is the sovereign Lord of all the universe."

We believe that the same God, after he had created all things, did not forsake them, or give them up to fortune or chance, but that he rules and governs them according to his holy will, so that nothing happens in this world without his appointment: nevertheless, God neither is the author of, nor can be charged with, the sins which are committed. For his power and goodness are so great and incomprehensible, that he orders and executes his work in the most excellent and just manner, even then, when devils and wicked men act unjustly. And, as to what he doth surpassing human understanding, we will not curiously inquire into, farther than our capacity will admit of; but with the greatest humility and reverence adore the righteous judgments of God, which are hid from us, contenting ourselves that we are disciples of Christ, to learn only those things which he has revealed to us in his Word, without transgressing these limits. This doctrine affords us unspeakable consolation, since we are taught thereby that nothing can befall us by chance, but by the direction of our most gracious and heavenly Father; who watches over us with a paternal care, keeping all creatures so under his power, that not a hair of our head (for they are all numbered), nor a sparrow, can fall to the ground, without the will of our Father, in whom we do entirely trust; being persuaded, that he so restrains the devil and all our enemies, that without his will and permission, they cannot hurt us. And therefore we reject that damnable error of the Epicureans, who say that God regards nothing, but leaves all things to chance.
[Aticle 13, Belgic Confession, 1561]

Jean

Your response is why you have a PHD and I have dishpan hands

[1] Truth is not incidental.

I referred to Luther and Marlowe thought I was just dodging (it was late)

But if the early church fathers had decided good fellow ship and getting along was more important than the word of God we would all be buying our relatives out of purgatory.

Not only did he go against the tide he did it at great personal expense. (Just read how the RC posters STILL feel about him)

Truth has a cost.

[2] God's Glory is not trivial.

This is probably an area that the Arminians have the hardest time understanding. They think that they are giving God glory.after all they keep SAYING they are saved by the grace and mercy of God

What they do not see is they, with their doctrine, share the glory WITH God.

The constant claim that nothing happened at the cross. It was of no effect UNTILL their will was added to the mixture says that they are co redeemers of themselves. But their very doctrine God decreases and they increase.

They think we play word games.and we do it for sport. The fact is words mean things. Words are the tool God has given to us to proclaim HIS glory and His gospel.

[3] Understanding sovereign grace has been a personal blessing that I desire for others.

Arminians system tells man that all were saved and none were saved. In the gospel they preach says God cannot accomplish His plan, and that he must rely on man to complete it

I believe God always accomplishes what He wills. The cross-completed the atonment, we know that because of the resurrection. All that were to be saved were saved that day. Not one will be lost that God has claimed of his own .

I have never believed that the differences in the two theologies are "fatal" . But God wants us to know Him, to understand His Glory and His power and His judgment as well as His Love and His mercy and his Grace.

Over and over in the OT we read so they will know" or "for my names sake" or words to that effect....... God says He is jealous God.

Thanks Steve you answered in a far more logical way that I could. But Marlowe anyone that has come out of a false system should know that truth is an end in itself.Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

There is nothing too large to overpower Him, nor too small to escape His notice. He is the sovereign Lord of all the universe.

That's right, Calvinism is a "Rockin' Doctrine"! Be comforted.

I do notice that we Calvinists were quick to chime in on the Comforts of our faith. You never see the Arminians talk about the comforts that the faith of "free will" brings.

So Steve, are you really a "better" Christian because you shifted from Arminianism to Calvinism? MORE MATURE, NOT BETTER.

Or are you still just another sinner saved by grace? YES.

P-M, I have answered your questions honestly and to the best of my ability. Draw whatever conclusions you wish.
Grace and peace,
Steve

I referred to Luther and Marlowe thought I was just dodging (it was late)

Can you give me a sane reason why we're up until 2AM on this thread!!? :-)

In times of crisis, a belief that God is in control brings comfort to the hurting saint. As Piper said, there is no comfort in haphazardness. But there is a deep well of consolation in the fact that nothing in the universe occurs outside of God’s purpose. We can trust God to be in control, and to work even evil events for the good of those who love him. The precious promises of God to ensure that everything works for the good according to his infallible purpose are guarded by the Biblical doctrine of predestination.

It is interesting Steve. When my grandson drowned I was still an Arminian..I had no anger at God. Perhaps it is my age or my life’s experience. I believed that God was sovereign in matters of life and death.

It never occurred to me that his mom or her family were responsible for the tragedy.

I walked into the hospital that had hall and rooms filled with grieving family.(mom has a large family and they were all the. aunts ,cousins, other grand parents)

It was surreal. Have you every heard weeping and gnashing of teeth ? I have that da y.

I had such an inner peace. I was broken and in pain. Even now it brings tears to my eyes. But I knew that our God was God.

I entered the one waiting room where the mostly Catholic family was hysterical...I started to pray out loud. I gave God praise for Nathan’s life. I thanked God for allowing us the privilege of knowing and loving him.... I thanked Him for His mercy to us.

I asked for His peace and reconciliation.

As I prayed the words flowed out of my mouth, a little nun that had been trying to bring some order to the ER came and whispered in my ear "dear keep praying"

Steve God was there...and He was sovereign in even in the midst of horror and tragedy.

We sang a song at the funeral.” you are sovereign" as the words came out my hands went up. I believed that...God had numbered Nathan’s days and they were completed.

My Christian daughter in law sobbed over the lifeless body of her last baby...she kept saying that God was punishing her or that it was her fault.

At that moment I had no comfort as I held the two of them.

My heart KNEW the sovereignty of God, that gave me peace...but the poor child (mom) did not have that assurance. I kept telling her that God loved her. that this was not a punishment. That it was just an "accident" (hollow words ...that imply we have a distant God that protect some and not others)

It was strange Steve at that moment I knew the sovereignty of God, but I could not bring myself to mouth the words. I was afraid they would make God sound cruel

I pray that I never again have to witness such a moment of pain. But should I have to I will now have words to say. God has a purpose for every life and every event. the failure to acknowledge that is a sin. Nathan’s life and death were never without meaning.

It is interesting in many ways even my very Armenian kids acknowledge this in some ways

As we discuss Nathan now we speak in terms of how God has used it.(several family members have been converted since then) God has brought other families to them that have lost children. They can see God use the event and Natans death and their their pain for HIS glory , and the comfort of others. They can express that now .

Understanding that we have a God that cares for the lilies of the fields and the sparrow in the air. He is God!

Thank you for the article

Can you give me a sane reason why we're up until 2AM on this thread!!? :-)

I was watching you....you better be careful:>)

I do not have to be on the top of my game to do that :>)