Posted on 06/16/2002 1:42:58 PM PDT by Matchett-PI
Did Paul contradict Jesus?
I know what Christians are taught, esepcially those of us who grew up with Christian parents, from the time we are little children. But sometime, I think Christians, without intending it, are a little disingenuous.
All of those verses simply say all have sinned, but sin is very clearly defined in Scripture. It is "transgression of the law," and "where no law is, there is no sin."
Can a little child who doesn't know a word, or vry few, "have the law?" Sin cannot happen by accident, it must be done intentionally, and until any being is capable of intentionally doing what they know is wrong to do, they are incapabel of sinning.
Now, if you like, I can string together a bunch of verses that demonstrate that sin depends on knowledge and ability, but I believe you already know that.
Hank
1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
Do you believe that verse is talking about the children's salvation? Do you believe the unbelieving husband or wife are also saved for the sake of the believing spouse?
Not sure where you are going with this one.
Hank
Pelagius, is that you?
Arrogant, obtuse, foolish mentalities who refuse to believe in the God of Scripture (because he doesn't come up to their personal standards of righteousness), are much too emotionally and spiritually immature to comprehend the fact that in those passages, Jesus is talking about the teachability of little children which is a result of their natural humility.
He is NOT talking about their sinlessness.
Emotional, frenzied outbursts like that will only favorably impress those who aren't intellectually honest and/or capable of critical thought.
When people mindlessly lash out like that, it causes them to miss important facts like this: "Most Calvinistic theologians have held that those who die in infancy are saved."
It is the very first sentence in the commentary I posted when starting this thread.
You said: Arrogant, obtuse, foolish mentalities... Arguing with the Lord again, Matchett?
...who refuse to believe in the God of Scripture (because he doesn't come up to their personal standards of righteousness), are much too emotionally and spiritually immature to comprehend the fact that in those passages, Jesus is talking about the teachability of little children which is a result of their natural humility.
Yes, well, I can see how your words demonstrate your humility and teachability. You can, of course, show me the verse that says, "Jesus is talking about the teachability of little children which is a result of their natural humility."
I could be wrong, but I strongly suspect you do not have children. Children are not sinful by nature, but they certainly are not humble by nature, either. (I'm speaking generally, because there are some shy children and adults and this is sometimes mistaken for humility.)
Hank
LOL!!
The only thing that's doing any turning is the boat that's going in circles, manned by one-armed boat rowers who still aren't aware that they've hit the iceberg.D
What did you call that boat? The Titanic? :D
How many kids have you raised Hank? I had 7 and 12 grandkids ..and they were all born liars
The humble and teachable are the only ones who can be shown anything.
That's why Jesus said we must become like little children so that we can be taught.
Can a little child who doesn't know a word, or vry few, "have the law?" Sin cannot happen by accident, it must be done intentionally, and until any being is capable of intentionally doing what they know is wrong to do, they are incapabel of sinning.
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come." - Romans 5:12-14
"20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 5:20,21
Your argument is not logically sound. Paul clearly states here that sin existed before the Law was given. By the manner which you argue, Joe Aborigine will be saved in his ignorance because he did not "know" the law. The Law merely defines sin explicitly for mankind and in doing so causes increase because of our fallen nature. By your argument, if someone is never told something is wrong, they cannot be held accountable for it. Again, that leaves anyone sheltered from evangelism or proselytizing to receive salvation because they didn't know they were sinning. That is unbiblical.
Yes, the children are holy before God if either parent is a believer and is saved at that time, "the promise is to you your children" etc.
Do you believe the unbelieving husband or wife are also saved for the sake of the believing spouse?
No but the liklihood is much greater if one is a believer.
1 Corinthians 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
i agree that God knows in advance who will be saved, so your Bible quote wasnt relevant to our disagreement. i simply disagree with the concept of the elect.
Okay, but... since the Bible disagrees with you, don't you think you should change your mind and believe what the Bible says?
If you want to know what THE BIBLE teaches, just answer the following question:
One question. Simple enough:
True, or False?
Either answer the question, or just admit that you can see what the Bible is teaching, and you hate what the Bible is teaching.
Think about it.....
True, or False?
Exactly right, and thank you for your gracious answer. So what's your problem with the Doctrine of Election, then?
No one is saying that their choice was not a REAL choice within the contraints of the created time-stream, only that God -- by his precedent election to NOT perform the miracles, predetermined that their choice would be to NOT Repent.
That's Predestination, a perfectly Biblical doctrine (see Ephesians 1, Romans 9).
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