PAUL VS.JESUS

Word Wizards Communications Services ^ | 1998, 2002 | Davis D. Danizier

[restornu]

This should be interesting for it is non-denominational and it’s just searching, studying the scripture.

Some how the author thinks Paul change the doctrine of Jesus, if there is a contradiction could be a religious zealot that tampered with the dot and the title?

[restornu]

Would you like to ping your group for a non-denominational thread, you must just relied on the scriptures

[restornu]

PAULINE EPISTLES
It is thought that epistles were written to members of the Church who already had some knowledge of the gospel. They are not evangelistic; rather, they are regulatory in nature. The arrangement is neither chronological, geographical, nor alphabetical, but by length, in descending order from the longest (Romans) to the shortest (Philemon). This is the case except with the epistle to the Hebrews, which was placed last because some have questioned whether or not it was written by Paul. The dating and chronological grouping of the epistles as presented below is approximate, but seems consistent with the known facts.

So maybe some of Paul's writting were with an understanding of previous knowledge and it did not elaborate on details.

[restornu]

Ping

[DouglasKC]

Dealing with sinners: Jesus ministered to the sinners, with no reluctance to engage adulterers, whores, publicans, tax collectors, lepers, or any other "unclean" person (the whole need not a physician; a church is a hospital for sinners rather than a showcase for saints). (This, of course, completely devastates the argument that god cannot be in the presence of sin, unless you do not believe in the notion of Jesus being god.) Paul, contradicts Jesus: 1Cor 5:11 "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat."

I don't know if Paul is contradicting Jesus or not.
Besides the usual reason given for hanging out with sinners (they are the most in need of salvation) perhaps another reason Jesus did so was that it afforded the opportunity to be exposed to all sorts of temptations. In order to be our saviour, wouldn't he have to know as many temptations as possible so that he could be our advocate? If the purpose was to come to earth and avoid temptation he could have just isolated himself with a few select people.

Paul is advocating that we avoid temptation. We don't have to deliberately expose ourselves to temptation, but Jesus did.

[restornu]

Thank you for starting the thread, I was think more on the topice of faith/works. but I will ponder what you said.

[gusopol3]

I don't think he's interested in making a serious or coherent argument. How could he otherwise have ignored John 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, what shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." It's been along time since Western Civ for me, but doesn't this thesis sort of turn Nietsche, who also saw Paul as a corruptor of Jesus' "joyful message" by "judaizing" it, inside out?

[restornu]

This, of course, completely devastates the argument that god cannot be in the presence of sin, unless you do not believe in the notion of Jesus being god

I do not have the command of the language as I would like to express this, but I will try.

Jesus being the only begotten Son of God was not yet resurrected and therefore had not received his glory.

In this earthly state he was tried and tested to and had a mission to redeem those of us also here to be tried and tested but was born of parents of man, where is Jesus had a Heavenly Father and an Earthly mother which would make him subject to temporal temptations.

It makes me think of Adam and Eve being heavenly beings until they part took of the tree of good and evil. This act made them subject to the temporal world and no longer in an eternal state.

In this Earthly state they are subject to the temporal laws.

In the Garden of Eden they were subject to another Spiritual Laws that are different to us here on Earth.

So when one thinks about God cannot be in the presence of sin, its really the other way around its man can't be in the present of God glory.

So when they say man never has see God it is true, but if man is elevate for a period of time such as Moses was he was taken up and able to see God for his body was most likely in the state of laws such as the Garden of Eden, this would be like a one of the degrees of glory.

That is why when Heavenly Father as in Luke 21;21-22, We have the voice of the Heavenly Father, but not the rest of him for we could not endure His glory.

[RnMomof7]

I will read in the morning..(it is LONG!:)

[restornu]

Just parking this here found on the web and don't to save to windows.

XXI. APOSTASY
False prophets forewarned, Matthew 7:15; 24:11
Falling away: Acts 20:29, 30; 2 Thess 2:3,4; 1 Tim 4:1-3; 2 Peter 2:1,2
Departures from Bible pattern: in organization, government,
baptism, worship, doctrines and practices of the church.
Resulted in the apostate Roman Catholic Church
See Denominational Chart

[vmatt]

Some how the author thinks Paul change the doctrine of Jesus, if there is a contradiction could be a religious zealot that tampered with the dot and the title?

Lord, we thank you for those whose words of truth you sent us for today and the apostle you appointed to the Gentiles, our beloved Paul who taught us to be zealous of good works but that our salvation is through faith and will always be followed by works borne of charity as the apostle James so aptly provided.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 Timothy 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

1 Timothy 5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

1 Timothy 5:25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

1 Timothy 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Titus 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Titus 3:14 And let our's also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

[Iowegian]

All of the gospels are replete with statements of behavioral obligation, and NEVER once make any statement remotely similar to Paul that the faith and grace that engender salvation occur "apart from" obedience, works or deeds.

This, like the entire article, is patently false. The man must have a works based theology so ingrained that he is forced to reject a major piece important piece of God's new covenant message to us. Does he reject the inspiration of Paul's writings? Very weird to me. I wonder why he doesn't want to throw out all the books of John as well since they clearly contradict him as well.

[RnMomof7]

Some will say that puny mortals can never perform enough good behavior to "earn" or "merit" salvation based on the value of their deeds -- that the attempts at human righteousness is as "filthy rags." Aside from the fact that this simply contradicts Jesus, the point is not whether or not our puny mortal attempts at righteousness have intrinsic value or not. Just as a child may offer its parents or grandparents an awkwardly-drawn piece of art, which likely holds little real artistic merit (perhaps in terms of art critics it might be as "filthy rags"), still the parents sincerely and genuinely cherish such efforts.

The problem here is Rest that the LDS does not understand nor teach the imputed righteousnes of Christ..

I can not ever be good or holy in the sight of God..BUT Jesus is all those things and He has imputed His righteousness to us .(this just came up on another thread. I had not considered a doctrine that Born again Christians accept as "natural" is denied by "salvation by works " religions)

"If any man be IN Christ he is a new creation.."

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[restornu]

Thank you for your post for it reminds me of one learning how to play the piano they must practices the correct instructions to get good at it. I think good works have many similar elements.

1. Is to learn how to do the will of the Lord, as Jesus showed us, He did the will and work of His Father.

2. Another is so we can find out our true character.

3.We allow ourselves to be used as a conduit for the Holy Spirit can witness to another.

4.After we have done all we can do than the Lord atonement pays the rest of the reasom.*

I am sure there are many more benefits in doing good work that others can add.

Are we not in a temporal state and to be tried and tested in all things?

Are we not to keep the Lord’s Commandments, His Ordinance of Baptism, and doing good works, as well as Love One Another?

If we are to be tried and tested in all things, how can we be evaluated if we deny doing good works?

R7-"If any man be IN Christ he is a new creation.."

Because you are a new Creation, this enables one exercise our faith in the Lord that if we do His will/work to the best of our abilities that, the Lord’s atonements will pay the rest of the ransom.

I hope you re read these verse with the thought in mind that if we also earn toward our ransom that Jesus atonement will cover the rest of the ransom. It is true that only our Savior is worthy to save us, but is it also not true of our nature, to want to do something towards showing gratitude?

Do we not feel funny when we visit a friend that has done a lot for us and we have nothing to give?

[RnMomof7]

"Good works" are the fruit of our salvation...not the roots:>)

[RnMomof7]

Because you are a new Creation, this enables one exercise our faith in the Lord that if we do His will/work to the best of our abilities that, the Lord’s atonements will pay the rest of the ransom.

No Rest Jesus paid it all totally...He left nothing for us to pay

Hbr 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth

Rest HE did it all...He paid the price I could not pay

[r9etb]

Sigh.

Of course, this is nothing new. Paul himself wrote about this sort of thing: For it has been reported to me by Chlo'e's people that there is quarreling among you, my brethren. What I mean is that each one of you says, "I belong to Paul," or "I belong to Apol'los," or "I belong to Cephas," or "I belong to Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? (1 Cor. 1:11-13)

This article is simple proof that people haven't changed much over the last 2000 years...

[vmatt]

Are we not to keep the Lord’s Commandments, His Ordinance of Baptism, and doing good works, as well as Love One Another?

Love the Lord your God with all of your heart and your neighbor as yourself and you fulfill Christ's commandements within the new covenant.

If we are to be tried and tested in all things, how can we be evaluated if we deny doing good works?

What good works did the thief suffering beside Christ have? As has been spoken by others, works are the fruit not the root. God bless and keep all.

[restornu]

What about the theif beside Chirst?

[vmatt]

What about the theif beside Chirst?

His works were evil yet he was saved by Christ.