Posted on 05/03/2002 11:20:24 AM PDT by RnMomof7
Paul's epistle to the Romans is a comprehensive study on sin mentioning sin about fifty times, never once mentioning hell, summed up by this verse.
I thought vmatt made a really good point here. It goes along with the short discussion you and me had. I've reposted it for you.
I've come to believe if you don't understand Pauls sotreiology then you don't really understand the gospel. Do you Arminists ever preach out of Romans or Galations in your revival services or do you always preach on hell to scare them. Oh by the way, I haven't ever read "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" and I find it strange that God used that sermon to bring many to Christ. Some day I'll look at the sermon and see what's really in it. I have a feeling it probably has a lot of stuff about sin in it.
P.S.-I hope I spelled sotreiology correctly.
No doubt sin is the major issue, but spiritual death is the result of sin, and hell is a result of that death
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. (1Cor.15:56)So, preaching on sin and hell go together, since the wages of sin is death.
Regarding Paul, he makes a reference to Hell in 2Thess. 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his powerRegarding the subject of Hell itself, the Lord's favorite chapter to quote from was Isa. 66 and it has Hell in it (vs.24). Hell is as real as sin and death and must be seen as a very real reality to those who reject Christ. It is however, I would agree, not a pleasant subject to talk about.
P.S.-I hope I spelled sotreiology correctly.
soteriology is how it is spelled. :>)
The ability comes from man's own will. You can either use the approach my Wesleyian brothers use and say it comes from God (Prevenient Grace), or that the will of man is still able to make decisions. I hold to the latter view. Since nowhere does it say that man has lost his ability to make decisions. In fact, in Gen. 4 God is pleading with Cain (an unbeliever) not to sin (Gen.4:7). Our decisions are effected by the corrupt nature we have inherited but we can still decide against that corrupt nature and for God once God provides the light (2Cor.4:6) But whichever approach one cares to use, the result is the same, at the point of the Gospel hearing, it is the individual who makes a choice, not God making it for him. Man goes to Hell because they reject God, not because God rejected man (Rom.5:18)
Amen.
Is mans will or prevenient grace stronger than the expressed will of God (as you all read it)?
Man can reject the expressed will of God, as stated in 1Tim. 2:4, since God wants all to be saved and all will not! That man can reject God is noted throughout scripture
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people (Rom.10:21)Moreover, since Christians sin, even after regeneration our will can still reject the expressed will of God.
Regarding Paul, he makes a reference to Hell in 2Thess. 1:9
Some don't see that as a reference of hell but as a reference to the destruction of the false Jewish Religion by God through the Romans. But Oh boy we better not head in that direction. This article is on Regeneration not eschatology.
Well, these fires aren't put out-ever!
Because some choose to believe and some choose to not believe.
He hath said in his heart, I shall not be moved, for I shall never be in adversity (Ps.10:6)Please do not say no one has answered that question, you just refuse to accept the answer. The amount of Grace has to do with the ability to see the issue and make a choice, not the choice being made for him.
As requested
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.(Romans 5;15)
Salvation
- Is of God
#PS 3:8; Salvation [belongeth] unto the LORD: thy blessing [is] upon thy people. Selah.
- Is of the purpose of God
#2TI 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
- Is of the appointment of God
#1TH 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
- Is by Christ
EPH 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
- Is by Christ alone
AC 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
- Revealed in the gospel
#EPH 1:11-13; 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
2TI 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
- CHRIST, . The Captain of our salvation
#HEB 2:9-10 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Christ the Author of our Salvation
#HEB 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Christ Appointed for our salvation
#ISA 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
. . . Mighty to effect
HEB 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
. Came to effect
#MT 18:11For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
. Died to effect #JOH 3:14,15; 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
:15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
GA 1:4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
- Is not by works #RO 11:6And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
EPH 2:9;Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2TI 1:9;Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
TIT 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
- Is of grace #EPH 2:5,8;
2:5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God
2TI 1:9;Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
TIT 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
- Is through faith in Christ
#MR 16:16;He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
AC 16:31;And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
RO 10:9;That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. EPH 2:8;For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
1PE 1:5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
- Reconciliation to God,
#RO 5:10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Then so as not to break the scripture, can we assume there are here introduced worms that do not die? I think not and thank you all for allowing me to present to you what I perceive is a terrible doctrine regarding everlasting torture of finite beings by God. This would mean God will have far more of His created beings agonizing in everlasting fire than present in heaven for eternity. I nor you should accept that as truth. I do not blame you and pray that God has much forgiveness for those who have been led astray of the truth by the princes of this world who the wrath of God remains upon.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Well, the Scripture is clear that neither the fire goes out or the worm dies. Since, those who have rejected God's mercy and love, they have remained as children of their father the Devil,(Eph.2,Jn.8:44) who is likened to a serpent (Isa.27). Thus,might they take the shape of their father?
This would mean God will have far more of His created beings agonizing in everlasting fire than present in heaven for eternity. I nor you should accept that as truth.
Well, you are free to accept and reject what you want. God has stated otherwise.
I do not blame you and pray that God has much forgiveness for those who have been led astray of the truth by the princes of this world who the wrath of God remains upon. Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Well, it seems clear to me that it is you who have rejected the clear truth of Scripture.
Just as heaven is too wonderful to imagine, Hell is too awful to contemplate
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb.10:31)
God's Grace makes all men savable not saved
Calvinism's doctrine of irresistable grace turns the great conflicts between God and man-God's love, patience, and mercy and the preaching of the gospel and the warnings to those who reject it-into empty charades....If nothing prevents God from dispensing His requisite grace except His willingness to do so, then why does he plead with mankind and mourn its waywardness?....True victory, then, must be the triumph of God's love. To win hearts is far more meaningful than to coerce with power (Hunt, Whatever became of Heaven, p.275)
Since Piper himself admitted that Jn.3:16 and 1Tim.2:4 do state that God wants all men to be saved you have to explain why God cannot do what He wants.
The only two options, man can refuse God's offer and go against God's clearly stated will or there is a secret will that contradicts what God clearly states in Jn.3:16 and 1Tim.2:4.
Which will it be? Will you go the route of Piper? Calvin, Augustine? and just reject what Scripture clearly teaches for a philosphical position and then list a number of Scriptures as proof texts ignoring the ones that contradict yours?
Calvinism=Mysticism
What power is greater than God's grace to make it of no effect? This reminds me of my RC days..Jesus opened the gate it is your job to earn your way into it..
Do you believe there is a force greater than the grace of God?
The blood of Christ is indeed sufficent for all..but effective only for the elect..
Arminism...the blood of Christ is of effect for all men if they are smart enough or clever enough to do accept it..Of course you have never explained why some are smarted or more clever..at least not yet...
Yes, the force that God gave man when He created Him, the force to say no to God.
God in His sovereignity gave man the ability to do that and man does it everyday. Even after salvation we still do it when we sin, do we not? We are commanded not to quench the holy spirit (Eph.4) yet we do! Why do we? Is our force greater then God's grace?
So, unless you are living a perfectly sinless life, do not give me the pious nonsense that no one can resist God's grace.
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