Posted on 04/19/2002 6:00:46 AM PDT by DouglasKC
MOM: Nope I do not think so Doug...
DOUG: God loves you and so do I mom. I'll give you a big spiritual hug when I see you there!
=======
I think what mom's saying is youd need great eyes and really long arms!
Thanks for the compliment! I'm sure you're mistaken about your position. Like it or not you're going to end up with me and climomike as brothers... :-)
And thanks for the link. He made a valiant effort to prove it scripturally, but of course failed to address key questions like how come the holy spirit isn't pictured in heaven and how come the apostles only baptized in the name of jesus.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
I pray for your understanding
Et tu future brother drsteve? :-)
I love you too bro and will see ya there! You and mom are going to feel a tad sheepish...but I won't razz ya too bad.
I understand what you're trying to say and I appreciate your concern towards me. That is actually my very favorite parable, but you don't have to worry about me :-)
Mat 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
[BTW: RC version of quote, "It ain't over when it's over."]
To be very candid. The doctrine of your church causes me grave concern for your soul. The doctrinal statement of your church -which I read on the official site-in discussion of the requirements for salvation is strikingly parallel to the Mormon Articles of Faith. I know there are tons of differences, but on this critical issue you're kissin' cousins. I do believe Herbert W.'s theology was more extreme than your church but the fact that one poison is stronger than another doesn't make me want to grab the glass.
It would give me pleasure to give you a hug in heaven but that will only happen if we embrace the same gospel.
I think you're misreading something then.
We believe that all who truly repent of their sins in full surrender and willing obedience to God, and who by faith accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, have their sins forgiven by an act of divine grace. Such individuals are justified, pardoned from the penalty of sin, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, which literally abides within them and supplies the divine love that alone can fulfill the law and produce righteousness.
This is exactly what the bible teaches: repententence and acceptence of the Lord Jesus Christ as personal savior are the only requirements to receive God's grace and his holy spirit.
What else did you read that made you think that anything else was needed for salvation?
I must admit that I'm also puzzled by the reference to the similarity to Mormonism. I've heard a lot of charges against my beliefs, but never that they resemble mormonism. I did some reading and on the surface they don't even look similar.
At this point however, my brain is fried and I am going to hit the bed.
I'll take a stab at this, if you don't mind. The Holy Spirit isn't in heaven. Jesus sent Him down to earth when He ascended. (See John 14:15-26) As for the Apostles baptizing only in the name of Jesus...I'd be careful about making a claim like that. There are many instances where it just says they were baptized, without mentioning any names. The great commission says to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. I would think that that formula was used by those who heard Jesus speak it, don't you?
That should make a difference... So using the BIBLE and letting the BIBLE interpet itself, it should be patently obvious that Paul isn't referring to sabbaths or holy days here. Look it up yourself. He's referring to something else. You look back on it and interpet it the way you do because by tradition that is what you believe.
Well, since you know nothing about me or how I do anything... that's a pretty cheeky remark.
Words mean things, especially in the bible. If Paul truly meant to say what you think he is saying, he would have been guided by the Holy Spirit to put those words down, but he did not.
Oh, well, I guess you know best, I mean you being there and all.
That's an interesting hypothesis that would solve the puzzle, but it still doesn't prove that there was ever a distinct person called the holy spirit in heaven. It also brings up other questions...like why would Jesus have to return to heaven before the holy spirit could be sent down? And how come when they have prophecies about the end of time (Daniel 7:9-14, Revelation) the Holy Spirit isn't there? Does it get stranded on earth never able to return? In my view, I believe that somehow the nature of God's holy spirit changed with the sacrifice of Jesus and that this change couldn't take place until Jesus returned to heaven.
I suppose we won't really know until we know. But for now it's good enough that the holy spirit is active and alive and in believers...
As for the Apostles baptizing only in the name of Jesus...I'd be careful about making a claim like that. There are many instances where it just says they were baptized, without mentioning any names. The great commission says to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. I would think that that formula was used by those who heard Jesus speak it, don't you?
I would think so, except in every case where they specified what they baptized in the name of they only mention that they baptized in the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38,Acts 8:16,Acts 19:5). It's inconceivable to me that they would deliberately disobey Jesus and commit it to writing that they had done so.
Also, in the new testament things are always done in the name of Jesus, but nothing is ever done in the name of the holy spirit. These factors have led me to the conclusion that they can't be talking about the name of the holy spirit in that passage.
Act 5:29 And Peter and the apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Act 5:32 And we are His witnesses of these things. And so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.
Act 6:7 And the Word of God was increasing. And the number of the disciples in Jerusalem was multiplying exceedingly; even a great crowd of the priests obeyed the faith.
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to him whom you obey; whether it is of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness.
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to our God that you were the slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who bewitched you not to obey the truth, to whom before your eyes Jesus Christ was written among you crucified?
Gal 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you that you do not obey the truth?
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Heb 5:9 And being perfected, He became the Author of eternal salvation to all those who obey Him,
It's a good thing he said, "if", because there is no such thing, and he knows it. Those who call the Father and Son, "two beings" cannot maintain monotheism, since two beings require ditheism, a form of polytheism.
By the way ... I didn't see a specific name attached to that peice you linked us to, nor did you identify the guy in your post, so I didn't bother to read it. Please identify him, will you? It isn't Brinsmead or one of his "students", is it? :D
So you didn't notice the words "the Holy Spirit, whom"... in the Scriptures you quoted? LOL!!!!!!!
You ARE a riot!!!
It is immaterial that they use the Christian-sounding words, "in full surrender and willing obedience"!!!
They are not even talking about the Triune God of the Christian faith.
They give "full surrender and willing obedience" to a different god and preach a different gospel.
I wonder who it was that came down at the Baptism of Christ and Whom Christ said He would send down when He left..an indistinct person??
Don't get all excited there Matchett. The greek word translated "whom" is just as correctly rendered "that" or "which". Translator bias, the belief that the holy spirit is a third part of a trinity, accounts for it's rendition as "whom" in this passage. Look it up in greek if you don't believe me...
Sure. Whatever you say Matchett. Thanks once again for sharing your scriptural insights. Looking forward to your next pronouncement although I'm fairly sure what it will and won't consist of.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.