CALVINISM, ARMINIANISM & THE WORD OF GOD A CALVARY CHAPEL PERSPECTIVE

Actually, resto, I have no problem with your believing what you believe. I would even join the military to defend your right to believe as you choose. Even in our Bible, we are told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Also, I believe Christians are called to join God in his love of the world, and especially of the world of humans.

You know, however, that I believe the books of Joseph Smith are not true revelation as are the books of the real Bible. The books of Joseph Smith are demonstrably wrong, and therefore, they make it nigh onto impossible for a Mormon to arrive at a legitimate understanding of Christ and his kingdom.

For me Woody, I am blessed, I have the Stick of Judah, the Bible and the Stick of Joseph, the Book of Mormon and my Lord commands me to be patient and respecting another’s faith, and most of all to Love One Another.

Well, you certainly do have the Bible. Unfortunately, you specifically deny the ABSOLUTE and FINAL authority that God has given to His written word. For you the Latter-Day Revelation is the final authority over the Bible itself. This is a denial of the Word itself.

However, based on the doctrinal clarity of latter-day revelation given to Joseph Smith…
In latter-day revelation the experience is verified…
However, latter-day revelation tells us that Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters before Cain was born…
The Ten Commandments have been reiterated in latter-day revelation, certifying as to their genuineness and importance…
Latter-day revelation identifies the Ancient of Days as Adam…
Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth for any forms of life before the fall of Adam.
Latter-day revelation confirms the teaching of the Bible…
Latter-day revelation confirms the biblical teaching that the devil is a reality…
Latter-day revelation confirms the biblical account of the Garden of Eden, and adds the important information that it was located on what is now the North American continent.
Latter-day revelation confirms the biblical account of Eve and gives us an awareness of her nobility.
Etc…

And you are specifically taught to be suspicious in the Bible:

1 Ne 13:26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable dchurch, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.
You believe in the Bible to be the Word of God "as far as it is translated correctly." (Pearl of Great Price 1:8)
"You may read and believe what you please as to what is found written in the Bible. Adam was made from the dust of an earth, but not from the dust of this earth." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 319)

Divine TRUTH is self-authenticating:

In fact, it would seem strange if God revealed himself in his Son Jesus Christ and inspired the record of that revelation in the Bible, but did not provide a way for ordinary people to know it. Stated most simply, the common path to sure knowledge of the REAL Jesus is this: Jesus, as he is revealed in the Bible, has a glory--an excellence, a spiritual beauty--that can be see as self-evidently true. It is like seeing the sun and knowing that it is light and not dark, or like tasting honey and knowing that it is sweet and not sour. There is no long chain of reasoning from premises to conclusions. There is a direct apprehension that this person is true and his glory is the glory of God.
The apostle Paul described this path to knowledge of Jesus in 2 Corinthians 4:4-6:
The god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God…. For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the one who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Notice that Paul speaks of God's enlightening our hearts (and in the work of creation) to apprehend "the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ." He is talking about people who have never seen the historical Jesus. How can they know him and be sure of him? What they "see" is the verbal portrayal of Jesus in the Gospel, that is, in the apostolic preaching of Christ. This portrayal, Paul says, accompanied by God's shining "in our hearts," appears to us as what is really is--"the glory of God in… Christ," or as "the glory of Christ… the image of God."
You can see that two things make this path possible. One is the reality of the glory of Jesus Christ shining through his portrayal in the Bible. The other is the work of God to open the eyes of our blinded hearts to see this glory. This is very different from God "telling us" that the Bible is true. It is rather, God's enabling us to see what is really there. This is an important difference. If God whispered in our ear, as it were, that the Jesus of the Bible is true, then the whispering would have the final authority and everything would hang on that. But that is not the path I see in the Bible nor the path I follow. Rather Jesus himself, and his divinely inspired portrayal in the Bible, have the final authority.
The practical effect of this path is that I do not ask you to pray for a special whisper from God to decide if Jesus is real. Rather I ask you to look at the Jesus of the Bible. Look at him. Don't close your eyes and hope for a word of confirmation. Keep your eyes open and fill them with the full portrait of Jesus provided in the Bible. If you come to trust Jesus Christ as Lord and God, it will be because you see in him a divine glory and excellence that simply is what it is--TRUE.
Sometimes this path is called the "testimony of the Holy Spirit." The old catechisms say it this way: "The Spirit of God, bearing witness by and with the Scriptures in the heart of man, is alone able to fully persuade it that they are the very Word of God." Be sure to notice that the Spirit persuades "by and with the Scriptures." He does not skirt the Scriptures and substitute private revelations about the Scriptures. He removes the blindness of hostility and rebellion, and thus opens the eyes of our hearts to see the self-evident brightness of the divine beauty of Christ.

2 Cor 3:18 We all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
Beholding is becoming. Seeing Christ saves and sanctifies. ~ John Piper Seeing and Savoring Jesus Christ

You have, unfortunately, replaced the Bible with "secret whispers" from your prophets.

For me Woody, I am blessed, I have the Stick of Judah, the Bible and the Stick of Joseph, the Book of Mormon and my Lord commands me to be patient and respecting another’s faith, and most of all to Love One Another.

Well, I know that you didn't like my comments, but the Bible does not ever teach that I should respect a false faith. And all ways but the one given in the Bible are a false way:

Psalm 119:104 … Therefore I hate every false way.

Now, from your answer you obviously think that I must respect your faith in order to love you, but love never embraces a false way. And you completely ignored my statement that I specifically do pray that God will open your eyes to see the truth. Oh well, such is the way it always is.

I thank you for your opinion.

"Well then let's make it easy: Were you "saved" before you heard the word of God?"

Turn the question around: Can the natural man hear and understand the Word of God or is it "foolishness" to him?

Let the Scriptures answer your question:

"We have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us."

"The man __without the Spirit__ does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them for they are spiritually discerned."

1 Cor. 2:12, 14.

Thank you we have tried to work with you, but you gloss over the part where we are not to argue in this matter. So I like to talk about my Lord and his Word and maybe it would be better in someway for us LDS to fellowship on an LDS thread. that way we won't offend the Lords children. Maybe some there will be times some of your topic will be more general in nature ?

If you want to visited us please do, but no preaching against the LDS doctrine. The main purpose it to focus on the scriptures and the Lords direction for the LDS.

I can only speak for myself others may still come trying to endure the insults.

Great post. I think you may also find this to be very interesting.

Does Ezekiel 37 Predict the
Book of Mormon?
Copyright © 2000 Institute for Religious Research
According to the Mormon Church, Ezekiel 37:16-17 predicts the coming of the Book of Mormon. These verses read as follows:

Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

The Mormon Church claims that the “sticks” mentioned in this passage refer to scrolls, which in ancient times were wrapped around sticks. They then say that the “stick of Judah” refers to the Bible, and the “stick of Joseph” refers to the Book of Mormon. The two sticks becoming one symbolizes the Bible and Book of Mormon coming together as complimentary scriptures.
A carefully examination of this passage reveals serious problems with this interpretation. First of all, in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) the Hebrew word translated “stick” always refers to wood and is never used, even figuratively, to mean a scroll or book. Therefore, nothing in these verses even suggests a book or scroll.
Secondly, the Mormon Church’s interpretation ignores the historical background of Ezekiel’s message. At the time of the prophet Ezekiel (6^th century B.C.), the nation of Israel was in turmoil. Since shortly after the time of Solomon, it had been divided into two kingdoms. The ten northern tribes, henceforth called Israel, had earlier been taken captive by the nation of Assyria in 723/722 B.C. Then in the two southern tribes (the Kingdom of Judah), was taken into captivity by the Babylonians (606 – 583 B.C.). The dissolution of God’s covenant people was extremely distressing for the remnant of faithful Hebrew believers. It appeared that God’s promises had failed. This is the setting for chapter 37.
So what is Ezekiel’s message to the beleaguered Hebrew believers? In the midst of there despair and pain Ezekiel gives a two-part message of comfort and hope from God. The first part is verses 1-14, which contain the well-known vision of the valley of dry bones. Through that vision, Israel’s God pledges to breathe new life into the dry and scattered nation of Israel and bring the people back into the land. For those who have read this passage it is quite a picture with those dry bones being miraculously brought to life.
Then, in verses 15-22, God promises a future restoration for the whole nation, and announces that some day the northern kingdom, called “Joseph,” and the southern kingdom, called “Judah,” would once again be a united Israel.
It is here we that we find the meaning of the “sticks” that are joined together in Ezekiel 37:15-22. In verse 16 Ezekiel is told to write on one stick “For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions.” This first stick represented the southern kingdom, or Judah. On a second stick, or piece of wood, Ezekiel was to write, “For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions.” This represented the northern kingdom, called Israel.
God then tells Ezekiel, in verse 17, to join the two sticks into one stick and have them become one in Ezekiel's hand. In doing so, God is saying that He will bring back together His divided and decimated people. That this is the meaning of the two sticks and their being joined together is stated very explicitly in verses 21-22.
And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
The prophecy of Ezekiel 37:16-17 has a specific historical context. It is a prediction of the future unity of God’s divided covenant people. The attempt by the Mormon Church to make this passage a prediction regarding the Book of Mormon violates the clear historical, grammatical context of the passage, and is thus a fallacious interpretation of this Biblical passage.