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PREDESTINATION
Bible Believers Resource
| Unknown
| Andrew Telford
Posted on 04/13/2002 1:33:01 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: winstonchurchill, the_doc, RnMomof7
"I am standing at the door and knocking! If anyone hears my voice and opens the door I will come into his home and share a meal with him, and he with me." Rev 3:20. That, my friend, is the Gospel. Call me silly, but I just don't think the King of Heaven is knocking at doors that can't be opened. Anyone means -- well how can I explain this to the closed-minded? -- ANYONE! And that is Good News!That's exactly right, Winston (despite your hermeneutically incorrect PROOF-TEXTING of Revelation 3:20, which is an Epistle to the Church).... Anyone may respond to the Gospel Call. Jesus Christ is NOT going to turn away ANY who respond!!
But NO-ONE ever will respond unless the Father causes them to respond (John 6:65, Acts 13:48), because in His Natural State, Man hates God. (Romans 8: 5-8)
P.S. I know it won't bother you but you have drastically misquoted Eccl 9:5 which clearly in context (that dirty word again) is referring to physical death after physical life. Real good hermeneutic work there, OP.
Actually, I am *delighted* that you point this out, WC. (in debate, we call this "sand-bagging"). The Bible does NOT describe Spiritual Death exclusively in terms of the relative "morbid neutrality" of Physical Death... but in terms of active opposition.
- Psalm 58:3 -- The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
- Ecclesiastes 9:3 -- This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.
- Isaiah 64: 6 -- For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
- John 14:17 -- Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
- Romans 3: 10-12, 23 -- As it is written, There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
- Romans 7: 18 -- For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
- Romans 8: 5 - 8 -- For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
- 1 Corinthians 2: 14 -- But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
- 1 Corinthians 12: 3 -- Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed; and no one can say, Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit.
- 2 Corinthians 3: 5 -- Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God.
The Biblical Doctrine of Man’s Depravity
The Natural Man comes from the womb speaking lies (Ps. 58:3), and is spiritually insane in his heart (Ecc. 9:3), and he only performs unrighteous actions (Is. 64:6), and he cannot receive the Spirit (Jo. 14:17), and he does not seek God (Ro. 3:10-12,23), and he cannot will anything Godly (Ro. 7:18), and he is violently hostile to God (Ro. 8:5-8), and he is not able to action God-pleasing selections of Will (Ro. 8:5-8), and he cannot understand the Gospel (1 Co. 2:14), and he cannot confess Jesus is Lord (1 Co. 12:3).
Given the VIOLENT HOSTILITY to God which exists naturally in the hearts of all Natural Men, it is FOOLISHNESS to imagine that ANY natural man will EVER "choose God" without the *prior* re-engineering of his Heart by the sovereign and unilateral action of the Holy Spirit.
To pretend that a Man will turn to God without God turning that man's heart whithersoever He wills (Proverbs 21:1)... is to cast your lot with the Lie of the Serpent. (Genesis 3)
To: RnMomof7
Yea we are related to the Kennedys..now top that one *grin* I am a favorite son of God (Eph 1) and a crown prince of His kingdom (Eph 2, 1 Pe 2).
To: Matchett-PI
Under whose name do you expect to gain entry to heaven: yours or Jesus Christ's? Of course, the typical Arminian would say: I--as in me, myself, and I--choose to accept Jesus as my God. I am smarter and more spiritual than all them pesky heathens that I don't share the gospel with; wouldn't want to let heaven get crowded ya' know. Therefore, I let myself into heaven.
What a shocker they are going to have when they figure out that God chose to grace them despite their Arminianism and that they really were quite dead in their spirits and hated God passionately and really were perverse in their hearts and were a foul festering putrid sore in the eyes of God and a puking stench that God could have vomited out if He had been pleased to do so and even their babies weren't the innocent little saints they like to believe either....
To: CCWoody
I am a favorite son of God (Eph 1) and a crown prince of His kingdom (Eph 2, 1 Pe 2).geeeeeeeee I am related to you by blood too :>))
To: winstonchurchill; Matchett-PI; OrthodoxPresbyterian
"I am standing at the door and knocking! If anyone hears my voice and opens the door I will come into his home and share a meal with him, and he with me." Rev 3:20. That, my friend, is the Gospel. That my little construct pretender is not the gospel, but an admonition to the Church; an invitation to abandon such God dishonoring beliefs as Arminianism and to again come into fellowship with God.
Now, can you tell me what the gospel is? It can be expressed in less than 5 words BTW.
To: RnMomof7
But the deaf can not hear it Maestro..indeed the sound is out... Surely 'Some' Do evidently,.... (obviously)......."YES". SOME Do!!!
How else can Psalm 14:1,2,3......AND,......Romans 3:9,10,11,12.......be 'explained'!
SOME Do!!! Evidently, (obviously)......."YES".... SOME Do!!!
Wow!! God 'does' work (Via the Holy Spirit/Scripture Proclaimed) in truely, mysterious ways!
Maranatha!
(PRAY without ceasing!....men 'ought' always to pray!)
AND, the 'blind' can too, 'see'!!
To: CCWoody
Now, can you tell me what the gospel is? It can be expressed in less than 5 words BTW.Exactly right.
Let WC take his shot; as for myself, I shall ask 3 Words... no less, no more.
To: maestro, RnMomof7, the_doc
Wow!! God 'does' work (Via the Holy Spirit/Scripture Proclaimed) in truely, mysterious ways!Yes, now... All that is needed, maestro, is for you to drop those unnecessary quotation marks.
God does work.
No dissembling quotation marks required.
To: xzins
That is correct, the first Adam placed us all in sin (Rom.3:23) but the Second Adam made us all savable! ~ forthedeclaration
Amen!!! Game...set...match! I think I would wait to call a victory until after the Propitiation--that Passover Lamb--has moved from being the means whereby our sin is covered and remitted to being the covering and remitting of our sin. -- 1 John 2:2
To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
"FREEPER (My addition) Calvinists already KNOW that Beza's supralapsarianism was in ERROR."
[1] There is a substantial line of Calvinists following Beza who affirm double predestination. This position dominated Cambridge in the 1590's.
[[Note: This is prior to the Arminian-Remonstrant controversy.]]
The Lambert Articles reflected the Calvinism of Cambridge (especially William Perkins), Archbishop Whitgift, etc. The first article reads...
......I. Deus ab æterno prædestinavit quosdam ad vitam, et quosdam ad mortem reprobavit. (Lambeth Articles 1595)
[2] I agree that Robert Dabney (1820-1898) argues convincingly (to my satisfaction) against supralapsarianism. However, supralapsarian double predestinarians are still around and respected in Calvinistic circles today.
====
My point to Winston is that Calvin was more moderate and less given to pressing the logic than was Beza or Zanchius, Perkins and Ames. But Calvin is a more interesting subject for wc's venom because of Servetus.
BTW, my favorite denominational name is the Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists!
To: drstevej
Oops... Lambert Articles should read Lambeth Articles
To: maestro
And here we have the LIE OF EDEN pronounced proudly and
boldly I might add by the "good" maestro himself(?):
THE LIE OF EDENWhat changes to make this man..so damaged by the fall suddenly seek after God?"You will not surely die." ~ THE serpent, the author of the Arminian lie!
To answer your question maestro: Well evidently nothing changes as the spiritually alive need not be born again. They can simply take 2 asprin and call God in the morning.
To: winstonchurchill; OrthodoxPresbyterian; RnMomof7; Jerry_M
Real good hermeneutic work there, OP. Well, let's look at yours:
Revelation 3:14,20 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,... Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."
Oh, BTW, winston, to dine with Jesus and hear His voice is to feast on His written word and have fellowship with the Living God. Seems to me like among other things that this is an admonition to READ THE BIBLE.
To: winstonchurchill
Anyone means -- well how can I explain this to the closed-minded? -- ANYONE! Yep, I guess that this must also mean that the Incas were in Jerusalem according to your logic because even though Jesus is speaking to the churh this must be ANYONE and everyone without exception. Wow, your butchery of the scriptures is amazing!
To: restornu
Hinduism,Interesting conclusion FTD You might not agree on all the particulars but the essentials of preexistance of souls, and Karma are there.
To: drstevej, the_doc, Jerry_M
***"FREEPER (My addition) Calvinists already KNOW that Beza's supralapsarianism was in ERROR." [1] There is a substantial line of Calvinists following Beza who affirm double predestination. This position dominated Cambridge in the 1590's. [[Note: This is prior to the Arminian-Remonstrant controversy.]] The Lambert Articles reflected the Calvinism of Cambridge (especially William Perkins), Archbishop Whitgift, etc. The first article reads... ......I. Deus ab æterno prædestinavit quosdam ad vitam, et quosdam ad mortem reprobavit. (Lambeth Articles 1595) [2] I agree that Robert Dabney (1820-1898) argues convincingly (to my satisfaction) against supralapsarianism. However, supralapsarian double predestinarians are still around and respected in Calvinistic circles today. ====***The_doc and I are both Double Predestinarians.
Double Predestination does not hinge upon Beza. Beza is an unfortunate hindrance to Orthodox, Biblical Double Predestinarians. Dabney explains why.
My point to Winston is that Calvin was more moderate and less given to pressing the logic than was Beza or Zanchius, Perkins and Ames. But Calvin is a more interesting subject for wc's venom because of Servetus. BTW, my favorite denominational name is the Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists!
Steve: hear what I am saying...
The Arminians don't care that Calvin was far more moderate than Beza or Zanchius. For that matter, they don't care that Calvin was far more "moderate" than Luther!! I have discussed this at MUCH length with the_doc [who is moderately Lutheran on the "bondage of the Human Will"] and our dear brother Jerry_M [who is strongly Lutheran on the "bondage of the Human Will"]. Calvin acknowledged MUCH more "freedom" to the Human Will than did Luther!! What Calvin maintained resolutely -- and what the Arminians refuse to acknowledge -- was the DEPRAVITY of the Human HEART.
This matter -- the depravity of the Human heart -- is precisely what the Arminians are loathe to concede, whether one adopts a "lutheran" teaching as to the BONDAGE of the Will, or a "calvinist" teaching as to the FREEDOM of the Will. Whether the Will is BOND (lutheran) or FREE (calvinist), the Arminians do not care to acknowledge that the NATURE is DEPRAVED against God.
And that is why, to quote Landmarkist Baptist Rev. Wayne Camp, "Total Hereditary Depravity is the real Battleground".
As a WTS graduate, you are *vastly* more advanced in learning than am I.
But may I... in complete and humble sincerity... offer a Layman's advice?
Unlearn, what you have learned.
This is front-line Apologetics.
Some Presbyterians might call it, Attack-egetics .
To: winstonchurchill
That was understandable to me when I was little boy of 5 or 6 watching a flannel-graph of Jesus standing at the door of my heart and knocking. It was Good News to me then. Amazing!
[knock, knock, knock]
wc perverse little heart now not bringing forth from its abundance, but rather "goodness and righteousness": Oh, hi Jesus, I accept you as my God!
winston, you really do need to examine yourself to see if you really are in the faith and haven't deceived yourself into a false faith.
To: restornu
Many of you can make all of the remarks about things you don't want to understand, but every Sunday all across the world, in every meetinghous of the LDS is a strong present of the Holy Spirit. I have no doubt a spirit is present!(2Cor.4:4)
I marvel that ye are so soon from him that called you into the grace of Christ into another gospel: Which is not another but there be some that trouble you and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed, As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Gal.1:6-9)
So the
Latter day saints have a
new gospel do they?
To: RnMomof7
geeeeeeeee I am related to you by blood too :>)) I don't know if this little Crazy Continuationist can handle a wierd Weslyan church Calvinist like yourself. I might be know from time to time to do what they in charity call dancing, but you strike me as the variety who might need plenty of room to worship. I might just have to tie you down to the pew. Good thing I have a ready supply of tape from my service to the church....
To: RnMomof7
Well if you determined that I first mentioned family I do not trust your reading of scriptiure because you have a comprehension problem.... How could I comprehend what I did not see?
It was your good buddy X that started the marital quiz I did not "start" anything. X had been harrassing me all day.....but you did as expected.. just as x did as I expected...throw mud and see what sticks..pathethic
All I did was Amen that no one should be referring to families, how is that throwing mud?
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