Dr. Hugh Ross and Bart Ehrman: A Christian turned atheist vs. atheist turned Christian

Christian Post ^ | 02/25/2023 | Dan Delzell

[QBFimi]

Fellow FReepers - if you’ve got this far down in the thread, two suggestions: 1. Look for Dr. Daniel Wallace on YouTube, and 2. Google up “CSNTM”, the Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts. Fascinating.

[A_perfect_lady]

“Atheism is a fairy story for those who are afraid of the light."

That's a cute comeback, but the atheist is saying that gods, angels, demons, devils, etc are all fairies: fictional creatures. Who are the fairies of atheism?

[metmom]

There is also Gerald Schroeder.

Here he reconciles the Genesis account using time dilation.

The Age of the Universe

http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/the-age-of-the-universe/

[SeekAndFind]

RE: atheist is saying that gods, angels, demons, devils, etc are all fairies

How does he know that they are fairies, therefore, non-exitent? Has he exhaustively researched them in history?

RE: Who are the fairies of atheism?

That matter could magically assemble itself to form the solar system, the earth and every single omplex, reasoning human being on earth.

[A_perfect_lady]

That matter could magically assemble itself to form the solar system, the earth and every single omplex, reasoning human being on earth.

That's not fairies, that's a process. Who are the fairies?

[Hebrews 11:6]

Reasons.org articles referencing time dilation.

[Taxman]

Ping

[Hebrews 11:6]

Well stated—thanks.

[daniel1212]

“It wasn’t problems in the Bible I was wrestling with. It was why is there so much suffering in the world? That’s why I left the faith.”

Meaning he has a problem with:

A creator proving man with every good thing He has;

Including the ability to make choices;

And allowing alternatives to choose btwn:

And consequences of choices;

And allowing the consequences to produce effects, varying in degree;

While restraining evil to some degree so that the whole world is not one giant North Korea, yet still allowing man to misuse and abuse what God gave him;

Knowing every single one of the effects of every single choice of man, as well as His own;

And in omniscience and omnipotence making all to work out for what is Good, that of the good of those who choose light over darkness, wanting God over evil and thus come to Christ (Jn. 3:19-21) and justice for those who do not, with varying degrees of punishment relative to accountability.

For God could have created the greatest robots, with the greatest computing ability, endurance, etc. and that could never make a wrong choice, but had no ability to make choices.

God could have,

• 1. made us (and angels) with no moral standard or sense or deprived us from the moral ability to respond to or choose good [morally insensible].

• 2. granted us free moral agency, but never have given us anything to choose between [negation of moral choices].

• 3. called man to make the Creator their ultimate object of spiritual affection and allegiance and source of security is what is right and what is best for man, versus finite created beings or things, and provided moral revelation and influences. But always have moved us to do good, and never have allowed us to choose evil (such as make believing in God and choosing good so utterly compelling — like God appearing daily and doing miracles on demand, and preventing any seeming evidence to the contrary so that no man could attempt excuses [effective negation of any freedom to choose]).

• 4. allowed us to do evil, but immediately reversed any effects [negation of moral consequences].

• 5. allowed us to do bad, but restricted us to a place where it would harm no one but ourselves [restriction of moral consequences].

• 6. allowed us to choose between good and evil, and to affect others by it, but not ultimately reward or punish us accordingly [negation of eternal consequences, positive or negative].

• 7. given us the ability to choose, and alternatives to chose from, and to face and overcome evil or be overcome by it, with the ability to effect others and things by our choices, and to exercise some reward or punishment in this life for morality, and ultimately reward or punishment all accordingly [pure justice].

• 8. restrained evil to some degree, while making the evil that man does to work out for the good of those who want good, and who thus love God, who is good.

• 9. in accordance with 8, the Creator could have chose to manifest Himself in the flesh, and by Him to provide man a means of escaping the ultimate retribution of Divine justice, and instead receive unmerited eternal favor, at God's own expense and credit, appropriated by a repentant obedient faith, in addition to the loss or gaining of certain rewards based on one's quality of work as a child of God. And eternally punish, to varying degrees, those whose response to God's revelation manifested they want evil, [justice maintained while mercy and grace given]. - https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Theodicy

[daniel1212]

To believe that an exceedingly vast, systematically ordered universe, exquisitely finely tuned for life with intricate astounding complexity, can be all a result of purely natural processes requires much faith, more so than that the universe logically testifies to design, requiring a First Cause (at the least), that of a powerful being of supreme intelligence being behind the existence of energy and organization of matter.

Dawkins [essentially] Admits Nothing Can Persuade Him God Exists

It’s Almost Impossible to Understand How Unfathomably Massive Our Universe Truly Is

The Privileged Planet

Design from Fine-Tuning | Reasonable Faith

'God: new evidence' - the fine tuning of the universe - part 1

When science and philosophy collide in a 'fine-tuned' universe

We Live in a Very Fortunate Universe

Can DNA Prove the Existence of an Intelligent Designer?

82 Mind-Blowing Facts about DNA | FactRetriever.com

Extra-Biblical Historical Evidence for Christianity

Is There Any Evidence for Jesus Outside the Bible?

Amazing Stories, Christian Testimonies, Healing Miracles and Inspirational Stories

[daniel1212]

That's not fairies, that's a process. Who are the fairies?

That is faith (which in the Bible is confidence based upon a degree of evidential warrant). The very thing atheists attack. See post above.

[daniel1212]

There is also Gerald Schroeder. Here he reconciles the Genesis account using time dilation. The Age of the Universe http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/the-age-of-the-universe/

Try to read later, thanks.

Without much of it, I will say that while "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1:1) may be read as separate from days in which order and then life on earth was formed, and Genesis 2:4 refers to a day as a collective, and a solar "day" in Gn. 1:1-3 as meaning our sunset to sunrise did not exist, since there was no sun until sometime during the 4th day, and thus some other source of light provided night and day for a rotating earth. Yet this would have to be a slow an exceedingly rotation for million-year day. Or as Schroeder says of even the five and a half days" before man was formed, "How would we see those days stretched by a million million?" [via time dilation] However, since vegetation began on the the third day then night could not have been exceeding long.

The latter seems to be a problem with what Schroeder says: "The biblical text shows us (and the Talmud confirms) that the soul of Adam was created five and a half days after the big bang creation. That is a half day before the termination of the sixth day. At that moment the cosmic calendar ceases and an earth based calendar starts. How would we see those days stretched by a million million? Five and a half days times a million million, gives us five and a half million million days." That would mean long darkness for vegetation.

And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day. (Genesis 1:11-13)

Yet if Schroeder moves his million million days back to before day 3 then it would mess up his calculations.

[mdmathis6]

I wonder if Darwinism/survival of the fittest in nature is what we were left with...AFTER, the fall of man in Eden when sin entered the world. I’m talking about entropic process...not buried dinosaur bones and eroded canyons and all that jazz and the issue we find in trying to “age” all that.

[Hebrews 11:6]

the issue we find in trying to “age” all that

Science has aged it successfully. What Dr. Ross has done is to demonstrate comprehensively why a literal, consistent reading of Scripture describes an old universe and earth, fully consistent with scientific ageing.

[Hebrews 11:6]

Psalm 104 describes how God replaced obsolete species with new ones suited to the conditions on the earth as He transitioned it gradually from 5-hour days and 2% atmospheric oxygen to our present 24-hours and 20%:

All creatures look to you to give them their food at the proper time.
When you give it to them, they gather it up;
when you open your hand, they are satisfied with good things.
When you hide your face, they are terrified;
when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust.
When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the ground.

In the "Cambrian Explosion", at 538 million years ago, God suddenly introduced all the major phyla in a geologic instant, far too briefly for natural process to explain it.

[Honest Nigerian]

Hugh Ross is such a disgrace.
But he does think highly of himself and his own conclusions.

[Honest Nigerian]

The single biggest thing wrong with Hugh Ross: he believes in evolution. The molecules-to-microbes-to-man kind of evolution.
That is not supportable scientifically or Biblically.

[A_perfect_lady]

That is faith (which in the Bible is confidence based upon a degree of evidential warrant). The very thing atheists attack. See post above.

I don't see this as an answer to my question. I'm not attacking faith, I'm just saying that the retort that atheism is "a fairy story" is not well supported. Where are the fairies?

[lasereye]

I don’t believe there is any overlap between the DSS and the NT. The early DSS were written well before the 1st century so it’s not possible for those to cast any doubt on the NT.

[Hebrews 11:6]

You are mistaken. Hugh Ross most emphatically does not believe in evolution. Nothing could be further from the truth.