Posted on 10/09/2020 6:01:41 AM PDT by Teleios Research
So, you believe Paul is contradicting himself when he wrote:
Amen! Thanks be to God.
Indeed! For we know - The good man brings good things out of the good treasure of his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil treasure of his heart. For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks. (Luke 6:45)
And the apostles could say, For we preach not ourselves [or our church], but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. (2 Corinthians 4:5-7)
Eph 2:8-9 Paul shows salvation takes both God’s grace AND man’s faith. So grace alone will not save apart from man’s faith nor faith alone saves apart from God’s grace.
Paul’s point in Rom 6 is just because the Christian is saved by grace does not allow the Christian to sin. Paul points out in v16 one is either lost or saved;
-lost by serving sin unto death
-saved by serving obedience to righteousness
If one is not obeying God he is lost for he is serving sin unto death. This means that the Christian must be obedient to God to avoid serving sin unto death. Therefore salvation is by God’s grace and man’s obedience in serving obedience unto righteousness. God’s grace will not save those who continue serving sin unto death meaning “grace alone” will not UNconditionally save those serving sin unto death. Grace conditionally saves those that obey, that serve obedience unto righteousness.
Those who follow Luther’s faith only teaching.... are they serving sin unto death or serving obedience unto righteousness? (reminder: Luther’s faith alone denies the idea of obedience unto righteousness)
You do not seem to understand there is a difference between a man doing his own works that does not save and a man doing God’s works that does save.
Rom 10:3 “For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.”
There are 2 different works in this one verse:
work #1) establishing their own righteousness (does not save)
work #2) submitting to God’s righteousness (does save)
Paul shows those Jews were lost for they were doing their own righteousness. They would have been saved if they would only submit/obey God’s righteous commands.
So all works are not alike. A man doing his own self-righteous works will not save him. But if he obeys God’s righteousness will save him.
Obviously obedience saves. God’s grace saves but does not unconditionally save. Grace saves only those that conditionally obey God. If God’s grace unconditionally saves then ‘all men’ would be saved (Titus 2:11) and there would be Universalism.
My salvation therefore is dependent upon my obedience and God’s grace. My obedience will not be perfectly sinless leaving me in need of grace. But obedience is necessary condition to receive that needed grace. Meaning obedience and grace are not complete opposites but go together as hand in glove.
So I have answered your question. Now where in the Bible is one example of a disobedient person who will not obey God’s will yet justified anyway?
Nowhere does James speak about justification before men. He is talking about God justifying those who do obedient works as Abraham:
James 2:21
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, (what KIND of works?) when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?”
So not just any work justifies but obedient work in obeying God.
Note that Abraham went out into the wilderness to obey God in sacrificing Isaac He did not do this ‘before men’. He obeyed before God and justified by God for being obedient.
James quotes Gen 15:6 as Paul did in James 2:23 and James connects obedience to Abraham’s belief. So there was no “belief only” with Abraham. For Paul and James do not contradict each other, that is, Paul did not teach justification by faith only while James taught justification by obedient works. They both taught the same kind of justification by obedient works in doing God’s will:
Rom 6;17-18-—obey from the heart>>>>>>justified/freed from sin
James 2:24———works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
All those mentioned were obedient in some way as in repenting.
Yet not all are examples of NT salvation for Zacchaeus and the thief on the cross lived before the NT gospel came into effect.
Yes. I continue to strive to enter the strait gate, Lk 13:24, continue to walk in the light 1 Jn 1:7.
I’m not Catholic...or Protestant.
I have many, many strong disagreements equally with both.
I am not sure what you mean here.
In order for the sinner to initially be saved, he is required to hear Rom 10:17; believe Jn 8:24; repent Lk 13:3; confess Mt 10:32-33; be baptized Mk 16:16.
What else is there?
The obedient are the ones saved (Heb 5:9) and the disobedient are the ones lost (2 Thess 1:8).
Heb 11 does not contradict this. Heb 11 speaks of those that had an OBEDIENT faith, as Noah...
“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, MOVED with fear, PREPARED an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
..and Abraham...
“By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, OBEYED; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.”
The text in Heb 11 goes on to state how all these OT characters “worked righteousness” verse 33. Likewise in the NT, those that “worketh righteousness” are accepted with God Acts 10:35.
So the common denominator in both the OT and NT, the line between the saved and lost has always been obedience/working God’s righteousness.
Again, I’m not Catholic.
The context of Jn 6:27-29 shows:
—that belief itself is a WORK
—one must WORK for everlasting life
So belief is a work one must do to have everlasting life which Christ GIVES for free. Even though everlasting life is a free gift it is NOT an unconditional gift. But comes with conditions and one must WORK to meet the conditions in order to receive the free gift of everlasting life.
Paul speaks of those Galatians of having quit obeying the truth, Gal 3:1; Gal 5:7. Belief is an obedient work (Jn 6:27-29) so when one quits believing the NT same as having quit obeying.
Believing is more than just a mental assent of the mind, more than just acknowledging certain facts about Christ. This kind of belief is no different than the type of belief the devils have, James 2:19.
Yet the type of belief that saves, the type of belief the devils do not have is an obedient belief in doing what Christ has said to do, Lk 6:46. A belief that does not lead one to repent will not save. All the belief only cannot save the impenitent.
Nuh-uh. You said that obedience had to come BEFORE salvation.
These three examples were all obedient as a RESULT of salvation.
I’ll take the twisting of your own argument as an admission that you admit that you’re wrong.
—This passage in Mark 2:1-5 proves that faith is a work. The text says Jesus “saw their faith”. What Jesus saw that is called faith is the work the men did in removing the roof and lowering the sick man down to Christ.
—Matt 9:6 when Jesus was “on earth” He had been given power to forgive sins of those whom He thought was deserving as this sick man, as the thief on the cross.
—The sick man in Mark 2 and the thief on the cross are not examples of how we today are saved under the NT gospel. These events took place before Christ died and His NT came into effect, Heb 9:16-17.
—The fact Jesus forgave the sick man his sins does not mean we today can be saved with repentance, confession or baptism. Note the text does not say the sick had any confession of faith. So this does not prove one can be saved/have forgiven of sins apart from confession belief/faith.
Jesus did have the ability to know the hearts of these 5 men that they had the proper attitude about Christ that moved them to do the faithful work of bringing this man to Christ where by the sick man would receive blessings from Christ; both spiritual (forgiveness of sins) and physical (healed of sickness).
Had they not had this attitude toward Christ then they would never done the faithful work in coming to Christ (the sick man consenting with them in bringing him to Christ) and would not received the spiritual and physical blessings Christ gives.
“COME UNTO ME, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”
Coming to Christ is obedience.
In my post above it should read “ ..saved withOUT repentance, confession or baptism...”
No one can be saved with even just one impenitent sin.
Faith is a form of obedience, it is a work. A NT saving faith therefore INCLUDES repentance confession and baptism.
Faith alone, that is faith that does not include repentance confession and baptism is dead being alone.
Therefore obedience, an obedient faith in repenting confession and baptism is what separates the saved from the lost.
That is why under the NT gospel there is no example of a person who disobeys by refusing to repent will be saved, who disobeys by refusing to obey by confessing Christ will be saved anyway, who disobeys by refusing to be baptized will be saved anyway.
Again those who obey Christ will be saved, Heb 5:9. Those who will be in flaming fire will be those who OBEYED NOT the gospel of Christ, 2 Thess 1:8.
Belief itself is obedience. Men have been commanded to believe as in Acts 16:31. So believing is a form of obedience because NT belief includes the work of repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism. Belief void of repentance confession and baptism is dead being alone.
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