Did Luther say, “Be a sinner and sin boldly”?

https://web.archive.org/web/20140528104851/http://tquid.sharpens.org/sin_boldly.htm ^ | 2005 | James Swan

[Luircin]

Read your PM.

***

No.

What’s the matter? You think you’ll be suspended from the Religion Forum again for heaping your abuse on me, and so you have to send it privately?

You COULD just read the article and compose a thoughtful rebuttal.

Instead you spend hours and hours heaping anger and scorn on people.

That doesn’t sound like an act of love to me.

[Rurudyne]

I don’t think he necessarily is.

Temptation, say in the case of adultery, is not the same as lust but lust is acting on the temptation even if in the mind only. The lust, which is the same as adultery, comes after the temptation and is something done by the one lusting.

Likewise a person to entertains murder in their heart has done more than just be angry with their brother, they have had that proverbial “Yeah, I’d do it if I could get away with it.” sort of moment too.

[Rurudyne]

Humorous aside from a non-Catholic: put that way it reminds me of what caused the subprime loan crisis.

[Rurudyne]

It sounds funnier if St Peter is using Hillary’s lie meter as a ceiling fan.

[Al Hitan]

No more than the following has changed:

As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18, note the following Early Church Fathers promise in the profession of faith of Vatican 1:

You are still recycling that post, for which you’ve essentially admitted you have not read the works quoted to verify the quotes are taken in context?

I’ve already demonstrated to you, that Augustine changed his mind later in life, according to his Retractations. And it looks like you've at least considered that.

Regarding the Bede quote, your post admits “[unable to verify by me]”.

Here is more from John Chrysostom to get some context:

• "[When Christ has asked: 'Whom say ye that I am?] What, then, does the mouth of the apostles, Peter, everywhere fervent, the Coryphaeus of the choir of the apostles? All are asked, and he replies. When Christ asked what were the opinions of the people, all answered; but when He asked for their own, Peter leaps forward, and is the first to speak: 'Thou art the Christ.' And what does Christ answer? 'Blessed art thou,' etc....Why, then, said Christ: 'Thou art Simon, son of Jona, thou shalt be called Cephas' [John 1:42] ? Because thou hast proclaimed My Father, I name thy father, as though I said: 'As thou art son of Jona, so am I son of My Father....And I say to thee: Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, that is upon the faith of this confession.'

  "Hence He shows that many will believe, and raises his thoughts higher, and makes him Shepherd. 'And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.' If they prevail not against it, much less against Me: so be not terrified when thou shalt hear 'I shall be betrayed and crucified.' And then he speaks of another honor: 'And I will give thee the keys of the king of heaven.' What is this: 'And I will give thee' ? 'As the Father hath given thee to know Me, so will I give thee'....Give what? The keys of heaven, in order that whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth may be bound in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth may be loosed in heaven.' Now, then, is it not His to give to sit upon His right hand and on his left, since He says: 'I will give thee' ? Do you see how He Himself leads Peter to a high consideration of Himself, and reveals Himself and shows Himself to be the Son of God by these two promises? For what is proper to God alone, that is, to forgive sins, and to make the Church in so great an onset of waves, and to cause a fisherman to be stronger than any rock, when the whole world wars against him, this He Himself promises to give; as the Father said, speaking to Jeremias, that He would set him as a column of brass and as a wall; but Jeremias to a single nation, Peter to the whole world.

  "I would willing ask those who wish to lessen the dignity of the Son: Which are the greater gifts, those which the Father gave to Peter, or those which the Son gave him? The Father gave to Peter the revelation of the Son, but the Son gave to him to spread that of the Father and of Himself throughout the world, and to a mortal man He entrusted the power over all that is in heaven, in giving the keys to him who extended the Church throughout the world, and showed it stronger than the world." (Hom 54[55] in Matt VII, 531[546] seq)

  [I think this passage alone would have made it clear that the Rock is Peter, in St. Chrysostom's view, as well as, and because of, the firmness of his confession. He has no idea of the two notions, "Peter is the Rock" and "his faith is the Rock" being mutually exclusive, as, in fact, they are not. It is equally clear that the promise is understood as granting him an ecumenical jurisdiction in a way which is not given to the other apostles.]

• "Peter, that head of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who received the revelation not from man but from the Father....this Peter, and when I say Peter, I mean the unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation, the great apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called, the first to obey." (De Eleemos III, 4, vol II, 298[300])

• "The first of the apostles, the foundation of the Church, the coryphaeus of the choir of the disciples." (Ad eos qui scandalizati sunt, 17, vol III, 517[504])

• "The foundation of the Church, the vehement lover of Christ, at once unlearned in speech, and the vanquisher of orators, the man without education who closed the mouth of philosophers, who destroyed the philosophy of the Greeks as though it were a spider's web, he who ran throughout the world, he who cast his net into the sea, and fished the whole world." (In illud, Vidi dominum, 3, vol VI, 123[124])

• "Peter, the base, the pillar...." (Hom Quod frequenta conueniendum sit, 5, vol XII, 466[328])

Here is some more from Origen to help with the context:

• "Look at [Peter], the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church [Matt. 16:18]. And what does our Lord say to him? ‘Oh you of little faith,’ he says, ‘why do you doubt?’ [Matt. 14:31]" (Homilies on Exodus 5:4 [A.D. 248]).

• "See what the Lord said to Peter, that great foundation of the Church, and most solid Rock, upon which Christ founded the Church ..." (Origen, In Exodus. Hom. v. . 4 tom. ii).

• "Upon him (Peter), as on the earth, the Church was founded." (Origen, Ep. ad. Rom. lib. v.c. 10, tom iv.)

• "Peter, upon whom is built Christ's Church, against which the gates of hell will not prevail." (Origen, T. iv. In Joan. Tom. v.)

I haven’t checked on the others, but maybe this is enough to help your understanding. You should do some research about what you're posting.

I, however, have no illusions it will dissuade you from recycling your disingenuous post.

[ebb tide]

There was no abuse. You’re question, oft repeated, has been answered.

I’m not the one calling others “hateful”.

[dsc]

“You spittle about things you do not know. The post dsc put up at FR the other day was shame, so shameful”

Si palman res est, repetitio injuria non est.
To say what everybody knows is no injury.

[Al Hitan]

If you guys can quit fussin' at one another, we can get back to the topic at hand:

Says the master of sidetracks.

[ebb tide]

Instead you continue to be angry at a man who you don’t even know, while refusing to get to know him at all.

This is why people call you hateful, ebb.

Oh, I think some of us may know Luther even better than you do, Luircin.

500 years of Protestant Revolution: Must-read account of the Life and Errors of Luther

[Luircin]

Yes, I know. You call them heretics, demonic, and accuse them of being liars.

That’s why people call you hateful.

REALLY Christ-like loving act you’re doing there, ebb. Saying all kinds of horrible things about a person without even reading all of what he has to say about himself.

What did you think of the pages and pages of quotes from Luther urging people to do good works at the end of the article?

If you’d read it, you’d have had to read ALL of those.

[Luircin]

I’ve read Luther’s actual words.

You haven’t.

You’ve BRAGGED about how you haven’t.

This is why people call you hateful, ebb.

[ebb tide]

Where did I brag I haven’t read Luther’s words?

Why do you continue to make stuff up?

[ebb tide]

Yes, I know. You call them heretics, demonic, and accuse them of being liars.

Please indicate which posts of mine on this thread where I have called anyone "heretics, demonic or being liars".

Do you know how many times on this thread you have called me "hateful"?

[Luircin]

Hahaha. Exactly the expected response. You know it’s against the RF rules to accuse me of making things up, right?

Deny all you want, but you’ve been very clear about your refusal to read what Luther actually wrote.

I guarantee that you won’t even look up or quote what Luther wrote about the Ten Commandments in the Small Catechism.

Here’s the link right here. Copy-paste away, but I know you won’t; you’ll say something like ‘I have better things to do, like pray a rosary’ or something like that.

http://bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#tencommandments

Prove me wrong.

[Luircin]

I never called you hateful; stop making things up about me.

[ebb tide]

So who are the ones you keep stating who are calling me, “hateful”?

I haven’t seen that come from anyone but you?

[Luircin]

I never called you hateful.

Stop bearing false witness about me.

[metmom]

Actually, what I see happening if the Roman Catholics are taking a beating and know it and turning to make it person and get into a tit for tat war.

I’m sure they would love to get the thread locked or pulled or have you slapped down by the RM, so they are provoking you.

Since they refuse to answer about whether they read it or not, then it is a pretty sure bet they didn’t and as such, there is no input of value they are going to be able to contribute to the thread.

Thus there’s only one point to their unrelated commentary.

Let them stew in their hate for Luther. Nothing you can say will ever change their minds.

[MHGinTN]

Well said ...

[Luircin]

You’re right.

I think I’ll just leave it here until I post my next thread. Next up: Direct quotes from Dr. Luther himself and we’ll see what anyone has to say about that.