Posted on 03/21/2018 8:45:09 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
I saw the post number and wondered by my name wasn’t in it.
I have never been able to figure out how that happens because when I try to remove someone’s name, it demands a name in the field.
That does not references the gift of tongues in the least nor even praying in tongues.
It just says all kinds of prayers and requests.
It does not say that praying in the Spirit is praying in tongues.
The problem I see is that the teaching that *praying in the Spirit* = *Praying in tongues* has been so ingrained in people with the verses of Ephesians 6 and Romans 8 being used to support that claim, that people don’t realize that NOTHING in Scripture defines praying in the Spirit as praying in tongues.
Nor do the references to praying in tongues refer to praying in the Spirit.
The first sentence is ‘And pray in the spirit’
The book “Nine O Clock in Morning’ by Dennis Bennett would be helpful, as he is a priest, who sought out the answer to this. It’s $1.99 on Amazon, or easily found in Christian bookstore. You might find it interesting.
Enjoyed the conversation, and God bless you with ALL that he has to give you.
Yes, I see that.
Where does it say that praying in the Spirit = praying in tongues?
When we pray, we speak to God:
I Corinthians 14:2
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries * “Pray in the Spirit” Ephesians 6 is speaking to God!
Gift of Tongues for Church needs Gift of Interpretation:
1 Corinthians 14:15–16
15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying.
King James Bible
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries
*Note: “IN THE SPIRIT” is prayer to God, not a message to Church FROM God, as in Gift of Tongues.
RE: Is that nit-pickiness the best you can do to find some problem with the article?
Errr... nope. My question still is this -— How do we differentiate between someone who is incoherently saying something and a real heavenly language?
That is not nit-picking, it is trying to find a basis for discerning the difference.
RE: There are also angelic tongues. We need to always err on the side of giving the benefit of the doubt. The alternative is unthinkable.
Well, have at it then. My approach is always one of caution, while open to the gift of tongues today, I always err on the side of CAUTION.
We need a criteria to differentiate between what is real and what is psychological.
That is why I ask the questions I asked above.
RE:I have no clue. I have heard people who were “speaking in tongues” that sounded like nothing more than ticka-ticka-ticka-.........
Well, there you go, See this clip of Rodney Howard Brown and Kenneth Copeland “Speaking in tongues” (Start at 1:21 )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhwlvFKHFvQ
How do we know what they are saying?
RE: Again, there’s no indication that this gift would amount to a lesson in angelic grammar [do we even know that our minds could grasp the equivalent of angelic grammar—providing there is one?]. It would be the gift of knowing the meaning of the particular utterances in question.
If you know the meaning of an utterance, then you would know the grammar of the utterance.
When Angels appear in the Bible and speak to humans, they do not use angelic language to speak to them. They use LANGUAGE THAT THEY UNDERSTAND.
Let’s say you are able to interpret an angelic utterance for the edification of the church and you interpret it as “God So Love the World” for everyone to hear.
How there not a grammar? There will be a word for “God”, a word for “love” and a word for “World” in the utterance.
And if the same utterance is repeated, I would assume that the same words would come out of the person’s mouth.
You say: “Scriptures neither teach nor suggest the possibility of learning angelic languages.” But Neither does it suggest nor teach that we cannot LEARN the language. If you can interpret it, then why can’t you can learn it?
Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Not YOU....
You were simply courtesy pinged.
The post was directed to the first person in the *To:* line. Anyone else is just a courtesy ping.
Sorry for the confusion.
We don’t even if someone claims to be interpreting them.
Knowing that many of these charlatans have set up fake healings with people planted in the crowds, I don’t trust any of them.
Besides, Copeland’s theology is really whacked out.
I read both your posts, and I will answer to the best of my ability. First, a vignette.
When C. S. Lewis, as a boy, reached a certain age [12?] his father sent him to live with a tutor. The tutor met Lewis at the train station and proceeded to drive him home. It was a silent ride, and at length, to make polite small talk, Lewis remarked that he hadn’t expected the landscape to be so hilly.
The tutor rounded on him. “WHY?” he demanded. “WHY didn’t you expect it to be hilly?”
That was the tutor’s first lesson in forcing Lewis to always examine and question his assumptions and presuppositions. Lewis conceded that not everyone would have liked the approach, but said that for him it was, “Red meat and strong drink.”
We can benefit from that approach now. Namely, by utilizing it to separate what we know about angelic languages from what we assume.
What do we know? We know that angelic languages can be imparted as a spiritual gift, via speaking in tongues. We know that it’s impossible to understand and angelic language without an interpreter.
That’s all we know. Everything else is conjecture, assumption and/or presupposition.
Let’s examine our assumptions. How do we know that angelic languages have syntax similar to earthly languages, or that they have any syntax at all?
We don’t. We’re simply projecting onto angelic languages the the traits of earthly languages. Earthly languages are all we know, so we make the assumption that angelic languages are just like them, except with different vocabularies.
What evidence supports this assumption?
None/zero. We are finite, mortal beings who have never experienced the heavenly realm of angels. We haven’t the foggiest idea of what their languages are like. They are heavenly creatures; they live on a different plane. Yes, they can speak human languages. But that does not mean they’re limited to them.
The bottom line here is simple and straightforward. We have finite minds and a very limited set of experiences. We cannot reliably, or with even one scintilla of certitude, project that everything that exists in the heavenly realm is exactly like what exists on the earthly plane, with just a few superficial changes. I.e.: an angelic language may be *fundamentally,* essentially different in every way from its earthly counterpart. Just bc the Holy Spirit understands both languages and can not only gift the utterance of angelic tongues, but also their interpretation, does not require the languages to be essentially similar. It speaks only to the breadth and scope of the spiritual gifts.
I hope this is helpful. There are many things we don’t understand, or fully understand, now, that we will more fully understand in heaven.
RE: How do we know that angelic languages have syntax similar to earthly languages, or that they have any syntax at all?
We don’t.
__________________
If they do not have syntax, then how do they get translated to HUMAN LANGUAGE which DO have syntax?
Therefore, my assumption is — THEY MUST HAVE SOME FORM OF SYNTAX.
Hence, with modern technology, it is possible to record what a person is saying and to record what the interpreter is saying to see if we can glean the meaning of knows, verbs and pronouns.
Secondly, let’s look at the one making the interpretation.... when does he know the angelic language? Is it just a case of the spirit coming into him at that time which allows him to do the interpretation and then after that, the knowledge disappears, only for it to return once someone else speaks it? Or is it the case that he already has been given that knowledge and knows it like my Chinese teacher knows both English and Chinese?
I admit we are finite mortals and we cannot fathom everything abut God. Yet, we are told to be discerning.
There are just too many charlatans in existence claiming to be able to perform miracles and speak unknown languages for us to simply give anyone who claims he has this gift the benefit of the doubt.
If he really has the gift, there will be a criteria for determining this.
The main criteria we human beings have is to LISTEN to the meaning of the utterance and to understand its meaning and COMPARE what is being said with what we already know God said in scripture. We have no other way to do this than to listen to the interpretation.
And since,
1) A sound from a human being’s mouth is being uttered
2) The sound can be heard by the listeners.
3) The sound is interpreted for listeners in their language.
4) The interpreter knows the meaning of the words being uttered.
We have to conclude, based on the exercise of our sound minds that it has syntax, and it has meaning. Otherwise, how can it be translated to the language that we know?
Here’s another thing to ponder -— When Angels appear to humans, they never speak to them in angelic language... they speak to them in the HUMAN LANGUAGE.
The intent is always to make God’s message UNDERSTANDABLE.
Given this, I don’t see why if there are interpreters, the language cannot be learned.
Do you believe that the earthly, syntax-dependent languages created by an infinite, omnipotent, omniscient God are the only kind of languages God is capable of creating?
Is God limited by your understanding of how language and translation can and cannot function?
How about because information must make sense and be codable and decodable.
Claiming that angelic languages don’t necessarily have to have any structure or format is simply an excuse to justify calling the nonsensical verbiage that comes out of someone’s mouth as *angelic tongues*.
That angels have their own language is a perfectly reasonable conclusion. They HAVE to have words to describe things that belong to the spirit realm and we cannot even conceive of.
But I am sure of one thing, an angelic tongue is going to sound far superior to what most people who claim to be speaking in tongues that are angelic, utter.
You said it much better than me, in just a few words! Thank you.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.