Posted on 07/05/2017 5:32:05 PM PDT by grumpa
Yes they did.
I watched both videos. Spent about an hour. Don’t have time to give the proper feedback it deserves. I’m always interested in hearing the best arguments against my views. I’ve even bought pretrib books on the advice of some Freepers. One makes the case against prewrath based on an apparent distinction between the Day of the Lord and the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord. But the reality of the evidence presented is that even if that distinction exists, it does not add any additional credibility to the pretrib view. The pretrib views relies on ambiguity concerning the Day of the Lord. In the pretrib paradigm, the Day of the Lord must always be adjusted in its definition and timing in relation to the rapture in order to accommodate the pretrib doctrine. It should not work like this. That’s not exegetical.
So far I have never heard any systematic approach to the topic that I find truly persuasive, in support of the pretrib view. Everything is anecdotal and proof texts. The problem is that even cults can force their false doctrines on a passage if they are willing to twist it to their own ends. We must be careful not to do this, but to “rightly divide” the scriptures.
A careful and openminded study of the topic of the Day of the Lord in scripture reveals that this time period is distinct from both the early part of Daniel’s seventieth week and the Great Tribulation. It is clear that Christ’s return happens exactly when the Day of the Lord arrives. Both come like a thief. They both come suddenly. They both come with judgment. It is helpful to realize that there is a difference between God’s loving discipline, His judgments, His anger, and His wrath. Wrath is a boiling over anger. God may be displeased and disappointed with things that believers do or say. He never has wrath toward us. The judgments of Daniel’s seventieth week become progressively intense, but they are contained. They are “tribulation” rather than the wrath of God.
I think the 13 mysteries topic is worth further study. I think the fact that the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2 is not part of a mystery being revealed underscores that this person’s identity was already known and is found in the Old Testament scriptures from which Paul instructed the Thessalonians (along with the revelations he received directly from the Lord).
The application of dispensationalism remains the primary source of contention for pretrib proponents. We must allow scriptures to inform us of what constitutes the relationship between Israel and the Church, rather than superimposing our own preconceived notions. I do not believe in replacement theology. I see a clear distinction between the nation of Israel and the Church. But Israel and the Church can and do exist simultaneously. And Jews who currently believe in Christ and are citizens of Israel are part of both.
The argument that we “wait” for Christ’s return for the Church, but tribulation saints will be “watching” for His second coming, is not plausible. The words would be reversed if they meant what Dr. Ice claims. Anamén means to “actively wait with rising intensity and clarity about what is hoped for” according to Strong’s:
http://biblehub.com/greek/362.htm
If Christ’s return for the Church could truly happen at any moment, then we should be constantly looking up for Him to arrive at any moment.
Instead, the angels asked the disciples why they continued to gaze up into the sky. Indeed, Jesus said when it is time to look up: when all of these signs begin to come to pass. In other words, the rapture becomes imminent when the signs happen.
Read carefully Matthew 24:29-44. This is the coming AFTER the Great Tribulation. Yet “no man knows the day or hour” when He is coming AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION. And He is coming like a thief AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION. These are attributes of the rapture of the Church that pretrib proponents ascribe to imminency.
Yet Dr. Ice contends that it will be possible to know the exact day of the second coming at the end of Daniel’s seventieth week. Which is it? This is a very important question. Is the Olivet discourse describing the rapture of the Church? If not, how is Christ’s coming described in that passage as being like a thief?
The claim is made that there is no judgment language associated with the rapture of the Church. That is incorrect. See James 5:9, 1 Peter 4:17, and 1 Thessalonians 1:8.
Again, in this last passage, is this describing the rapture of the Church? If so, how can it also say that tribulation will be repaid with fire from Heaven on the persecutors of believers at the time of this coming? But if this is not the rapture of the Church, how can believers be finally receiving their respite from persecution at this coming?
I believe that if we come to scripture with an attitude of meekness, set aside our preconceptions, and open our heart to the Holy Spirit on this matter, He will give us clarity and understanding of the things that are important for us to know. And I see a continued and repeated theme of expecting persecution and tribulation. In contrast we are encouraged by the promise to be spared from God’s wrath.
It is in this broader context of the Gospel and pattern of the Christian life that a prewrath rapture makes the most sense. Believe me, I would rather the rapture come sooner than later. But we are called to follow the example of Christ. We are called to enter the kingdom of God through much tribulation and persecution. Since the reformation and the formation of this nation, the west has experienced liberty in an unprecedented way compared with all of church history and the experience of other Christians throughout the world even today. These present hardships are going to be more widespread throughout the world prior to Christ’s return. And when He does rescue His Church from the antichrist, He will pour out His fiery wrath on these persecutors. And we will enter into rest.
I’ve enjoyed our conversation and hope that nothing I’ve said comes through as being contentious or condescending. That would undermine the message. We can both continue to study, pray, and seek the Lord. I am certain that we will come to a consensus by doing so as the final events of history become more near.
I seriously doubt that we will come to a ‘consensus’. It is my opinion that you have imbedded assumptions which are guiding you perceptions on what Dr Ice has said.
One makes the case against prewrath based on an apparent distinction between the Day of the Lord and the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord. But the reality of the evidence presented is that even if that distinction exists, it does not add any additional credibility to the pretrib view.
The Day of The Lord is a period of time which includes all of the seventieth week of Daniel's Prophecy. The Great and terrible Day is a specific segment of that broader Day of The Lord period.
I'm now three plus decades into this study. At 71 I am still learning. But I rejected the notion of post trib / prewarth long ago.
You asserted, The argument that we “wait” for Christ’s return for the Church, but tribulation saints will be “watching” for His second coming, is not plausible." Here again a preconceived notion is guiding your rejection, without understanding the point being made.
The Tribulation Saints are not The Body of Christ / The Bride of Christ. The Tribulation Saints become 'saints' during the Tribulation, mostly right at the start, because of the evidence of Christians having been snatched away from the coming wrath. Since these in many cases have a specific moment when someone they knew disappeared in the Rapture, there is a firm way to count down to the precise day Jesus will be setting foot on the Earth at the end of the two segments of the Tribulation. The beginning of the countdown is hallmarked for ISRAEL by Daniel as the signing of the 'peace compact' with the anti-Christ, who will--in three and one half years-- stand in the Holy Place in the Temple proclaiming himself god. Daniel's prophecy is so powerful because he was given specific numbers of days by Lunar calendar to write down!
As many teach now, there may be an extensive time segment between the Rapture and the beginning of the seventieth week of years. The sudden disappearance of millions of alive members of society will be a cataclysm for the impact it has on the functioning of our electromagnetic world! In countries where lots of society are believers, the impact will be most harsh. In Dubai the event may have to be reported via CNN for the average Arab to even know it happened. ... And don't forget the great lie and strong delusion which will be embraced by those unable to handle the Truth. The world chaos will be horrific, and into this scene will stride the one on the White Horse with a bow but no arrows.
You apparently reject the notion of imminency, yet it is Jesus Who introduced that notion. Tribulation Saints will have 144,000 Jewish evangelists, scattered across the globe, teaching the specifics. The Two witnesses will be giving specific teaching. And Angel will be spreading the news of Jesus's soon return, all during the Tribulation. By the power of the Holy Spirit this will cause a number so great no man could number it in that day to be brought to Heaven out of the Tribulation.
Dr. Ice makes a strong case for the notion that the Tribulation years, for the gentile world, will be a time of testing. Those who have rejected the Gospel of Grace during the Church Age will either suddenly realize the Rapture of believers has occurred and they were not of it and cry out to GOD, or they will swallow the great lie and refuse to trust in the Lord. Dr. Ice calls those who refuse, 'the Earth-dwellers'. The Tribulation for the Jews is of a different perspective, for Jesus said to the Jews they would not see Him again until they call out to Him 'blessed is He Who comes in the name of the Lord.' The Tribulation is already proclaimed, through Daniel, to be GOD putting an end to sin in Israel.
And here is another dissonance caused by preconceived ideas: The application of dispensationalism remains the primary source of contention for pretrib proponents. ... I do not believe in replacement theology. Paul used the word 'dispensation' so I feel it is a valid term. And dispensationalism is not replacement theology, as Daniel's Prophecies indicate. There is an interval between week 69 and week 70, but God is not finished with Israel at the end of week 69, so the Church Age is not a replacement for the work God assigned to Israel. God has no plan "B". The Bible informs us (through Paul) that The Church Age of Grace is to bring jealousy to Israel. Maybe that's why there are 144,000 on fire Jewish evangelists during the Tribulation, giving up their lives gladly to promote The Truth?
You offered, I think the fact that the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2 is not part of a mystery being revealed underscores that this person’s identity was already known and is found in the Old Testament scriptures from which Paul instructed the Thessalonians (along with the revelations he received directly from the Lord). Would you like to tell me who / what in your opinion is the Restrainer? I take that to be The Body of Christ represented by the Holy Spirit in believers making up the members of the Body of Christ present on Earth during the Age of Grace. Paul references this Body of Christ in the Corinthian letters. If you have found 'The Body of Christ' indirectly referenced in Jeremiah and Isaiah then you have also found the OT hints at The Age of Grace between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel's Prophecy. Read these again.
unlearner: But Israel and the Church can and do exist simultaneously. And Jews who currently believe in Christ and are citizens of Israel are part of both. Paul states categorically that during this Age of Grace, the body of Believers is hallmarked by there being no distinction between Jew and Gentile as fellow believers in Christ, members of His Body, Hs Bride.
You asserted, If Christ’s return for the Church could truly happen at any moment, then we should be constantly looking up for Him to arrive at any moment. And that is exactly what JESUS instructed His Ekklesia to be doing! Hence the doctrine of imminency. But the coming for His Ekklesia is to be in the air, not on the ground. Raed 1 Thess 4:13-'19' again. And John 14 is Jesus affirming His return to take us there where He is during the Tribulation, then returning to the earth with us as His Witnesses at the end of the Tribulation in that Great and Terrible Day of the Lord.
You go on to assert: Instead, the angels asked the disciples why they continued to gaze up into the sky. Indeed, Jesus said when it is time to look up: when all of these signs begin to come to pass. In other words, the rapture becomes imminent when the signs happen. I'm afraid you preconceived notions are getting in the way again, causing you to conflate two distinctly different phenomena. The disciples on the mount of Olives asked for what will be the signs of the end, not the beginning of the Day of The Lord. Indeed, at the end of the Tribulation, Jesus will be descending from the clouds, not to the clouds as at the Rapture of the Believers both dead and still alive. In the arrival in the air, Jesus is coming to take His Bride back tot he Father's House (see John 14 again). There is no hint of Judgment in this arrival. BUT at the end of the Tribulation His descent to the ground is full of Judgment and power exhibited.
You wrest scriptures with strong preconceived notions no doubt brought forward from what you have been taught in the past: Is the Olivet discourse describing the rapture of the Church? If not, how is Christ’s coming described in that passage as being like a thief? Try reading the Luke discourse given to a multitude who would come to hear Him there in The Temple, then read the Olivet Discourse given that evening to the four Disciples on The Mount of Olives. Note carefully the words 'before these things' and 'after these things'. Jesus hints at the Chruch Age interval mystery.
And finally, I would ask you to answer the question central to this issue: "What is the purpose of the Rapture of The Bride of Christ, The Body of Christ?" Did Paul answer this for us in 2Thess2 for the members of the Ekklesia, the Body of Believers? I think he did!
I failed to close the italics symbol. Should read:
And here is another dissonance caused by preconceived ideas: unlearner: The application of dispensationalism remains the primary source of contention for pretrib proponents. ... I do not believe in replacement theology. me: Paul used the word 'dispensation' so I feel it is a valid term. And dispensationalism is not replacement theology, as Daniel's Prophecies indicate. There is an interval between week 69 and week 70, but God is not finished with Israel at the end of week 69, so the Church Age is not a replacement for the work God assigned to Israel. God has no plan "B". The Bible informs us (through Paul) that The Church Age of Grace is to bring jealousy to Israel. Maybe that's why there are 144,000 on fire Jewish evangelists during the Tribulation, giving up their lives gladly to promote The Truth?
Why would any sincere Christian give this post a respectful reply? It mocks the words of Jesus Christ
So even if there were a rapture it would have to be at the last day rather than before any believer got a hurt finger.
Why not post the scripture passage which verifies your claim in sentence 32? We will read it.
Make that sentence #2. Tired fingers.
“I seriously doubt that we will come to a ‘consensus’.”
But we MUST reach a consensus. You see, Jesus really is going to come back, and then we will be in 100% agreement.
Now, if you are right, then by all means, at that time feel free to look me up and have a good laugh at my expense. I promise to share in the self-deprecating laugh along with you to have discovered what a fool I was to fall for the pre-wrath non-sense. I also pledge to congratulate you on being a better Bible scholar than myself. And I will confess that I am so glad you were right and not me.
However, if we are around for the appearance of the antichrist, if we see the abomination of desolation, then we must come to a different consensus. And as much as I would actually prefer to be wrong on this, I’m fairly confident I’m not. Otherwise I would not waste my time or yours belaboring something unimportant or merely a matter of opinion.
“you have imbedded assumptions which are guiding you perceptions on what Dr Ice has said... Here is one glaring example...” [my view of the Day of the Lord cited].
“The Day of The Lord is a period of time which includes all of the seventieth week of Daniel’s Prophecy.”
Can you show in any specific passage of the Bible any evidence for this? Proving such is equivalent to demolishing the whole presupposition of a pre-wrath rapture viewpoint.
I have searched and searched. I can not find even one.
Indeed, the darkening of the sun and moon described in Joel 2:21, Matthew 24:29, and Revelation 6:12-17, all indicate, in a consistent fashion, that this sign will mark the END of the Great Tribulation and beginning of the Day of the Lord. And the return of Christ is also consistently indicated to happen exactly THEN.
Dr. Ice claims the same thing as you. Particularly, he claims that the Great Tribulation is “specifically called the wrath of God.” Here is exactly where he says that:
https://youtu.be/4kKa5WJktfg?t=418
He admits that persecution is normative for Christians. But he claims that the persecution of believers in Revelation 6:9-10 are experiencing the wrath of God. Does this make any sense? Do you really believe that the so-called “tribulation saints” being persecuted means they are receiving God’s wrath? Come on. That makes no sense at all.
He claims that Revelation 3:10 is a promise for believers who have endured “during the Church age” to escape from the time of the Great Tribulation by being raptured out.
This passage is about being delivered through the Great Tribulation rather than delivered out of it. The record of Christ’s prayer for the Church has the same word:
John 17:15
I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
We do not have to “go out of the world” to be kept from the evil one or the tribulation. God keeps His elect.
He actually accuses people like me, who do not share his view, of calling Christ a wife abuser. Here is where he makes this specific accusation:
https://youtu.be/4kKa5WJktfg?t=566
That’s a terrible and inaccurate accusation. The pre-wrath view recognizes that the persecution in this passage is NOT God’s wrath, and that Christ is not beating anyone up who is standing for His word. His wrath is directed toward the wicked, whether that is in the Church age or during the Day of the Lord. It is directed toward the persecutors rather than the persecuted. And God will avenge His elect.
“I’m now three plus decades into this study. At 71 I am still learning. But I rejected the notion of post trib / prewarth long ago.”
I’m still learning also. I’m a bit younger, but I was always taught the pretrib view. When I was a teenager I witnessed to my fellow students in high school and used what I knew of Bible prophecy to also share the Gospel. I discovered that prophecy is something that draws a lot of interest from the lost. Some of my class mates made a profession of faith right there in class. I still talk weekly to one of them now over forty years later. And it was this early experience that caused me to want to study more thoroughly, so I could accurately relate it to others. But I found that many of the things I had been taught did not easily match up with Biblical passages on the subject.
I too have studied this topic for a very long time. The prewrath view has only been recently systematized and promoted under that title. That was in 1990. Since this explanation that attempted to address flaws with the three most common systematic, premillenial rapture views, it has spread like wildfire.
The supposed weaknesses of prewrath rapturism are minor when compared to the ones that other positions encounter. Pretrib has less flaws than the other three popular ones, in my opinion. The problem is that most people who argue for a pretrib view must take strikingly different positions as to the meaning of certain passages.
Some will argue strongly for imminency based on Christ’s return being “like a thief.” Yet others will distance themselves from this view because of the passages that clearly describe the return of Christ AFTER the great tribulation to have this characteristic.
Matthew 24:29-31, 36, 43, 44
Immediately AFTER [emphasis mine] the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other...
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only...
But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Is the passage above describing an event before Daniel’s seventieth week or after? That’s a trick question, because it’s neither. He’s describing the second coming for New Testament saints at the end of the Great Tribulation (which is not the same as the end of Daniel’s seventieth week), and immediately prior to the Day of the Lord, or the “End” as it’s called in this passage.
“As many teach now, there may be an extensive time segment between the Rapture and the beginning of the seventieth week of years. “
Dr. Ice himself claims that it is possible that a sizable amount of time could occur between the rapture and the onset of the Day of the Lord. Or at least that is how it sounds to me here:
https://youtu.be/4kKa5WJktfg?t=1035
This is very inconsistent with the Biblical connection with Christ’s return and the Day of the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-2
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
But this is especially surprising to hear coming from him and you when a linchpin of pretrib rapturism is dispensational theology. I thought the argument was that when the Church age ends, Daniel’s seventieth week begins. Do you have a name for the dispensation between these two?
“Here again [on the topic of watching versus waiting] a preconceived notion is guiding your rejection, without understanding the point being made.”
No. I never heard it before. So I read up. I read the passages cited. I looked up the Greek words. I looked for cross references. I looked at the definition of the words. The argument just does not hold water. If it does, the point has not been conveyed. It is not my preconception about it that is the problem. I have none. Perhaps I am stubborn and a slow learner, but I did not bring my preconceptions to the topic. But Dr. Ice claimed that the difference between the use of watch and wait demonstrates distinction between the rapture and the return of Christ at the end of Daniel’s seventieth week, in such a way to invalidate a prewrath rapture.
Keep in mind that the prewrath view does distinguish between the coming of Christ for the church and His return to reign. But the claimed imminency of the rapture is supposed to be distinct from His return to earth because we “wait” for the rapture, and the tribulation saints must “watch” for His return to the earth? Like I said, it would be the opposite. If someone is coming to your house and is about to arrive at any moment, you may go look to see if he is in your driveway. You may watch. If you know he is coming over in 4 hours, you wait, you do not watch. That’s exactly the opposite of what he argued.
Here is exactly where Dr. Ice talks about the distinction between watching and waiting:
https://youtu.be/4kKa5WJktfg?t=823
Here is where Dr. Ice claims that the second coming at the end of Daniel’s seventieth week can be predicted to the day once we know the day Daniel’s seventieth week begins:
https://youtu.be/4kKa5WJktfg?t=863
This may be true, but how is this “coming as a thief?” It’s not. What can be predicted is when He comes to cast the antichrist and false prophet into the lake of fire. That’s not the rapture. The gathering by angels at this moment will be to cast the wicked out of His kingdom. But the gathering at the END of the Great Tribulation will be of the elect. See Matthew 24:31.
“The Tribulation Saints are not The Body of Christ / The Bride of Christ.”
That’s a distinction without a difference. “Tribulation saints” is a manmade term. I agree that there are those who will enter the kingdom of Christ who are not the bride of Christ. The difference between a pretrib and a prewrath view in Revelation 6 is Christ coming at the onset or the end of this passage. Neither is described explicitly. We can only know implicitly.
“And don’t forget the great lie and strong delusion which will be embraced by those unable to handle the Truth.”
The strong delusion after the rapture fits more readily with God’s wrath being poured out and those experiencing it still NOT repenting. But the pretrib view considers the uncountable multitude from every nation to be tribulation saints. And this is also after massive numbers of saints are slaughtered during the 5th Seal episode. How are so many saved when this strong delusion is poured out? While it is true that there will be those resurrected at the end who were beheaded for Christ, there is no reason to believe that those who have resisted the Gospel stubbornly will suddenly be convinced. This strong delusion will be preceded by a time of an outpouring of God’s Spirit similar to Acts 2. But this will proceed the Day of the Lord, and many will “call upon the name of the Lord.”
“You apparently reject the notion of imminency, yet it is Jesus Who introduced that notion.”
I believe the return of Christ will become imminent when we see the six signs He gave us in the Olivet discourse and in Revelation 6. Right now we are to be about His business. We are not supposed to stand gazing into heaven now. When these signs begin happening, we should start looking up.
Luke 21:28
Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.
Acts 1:11
[They] also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
“The Bible informs us (through Paul) that The Church Age of Grace is to bring jealousy to Israel.”
It is the salvation of the Gentiles that provokes them to jealousy. As I said, I am a dispensationalist. The difference is I do not believe that Daniel’s seventieth week involves an undoing of Pentecost as Dr. Ice believes:
https://youtu.be/4kKa5WJktfg?t=1107
His exact words are “it’s a reversal of Pentecost.”
There will be no reversal of Pentecost. The Joel prophecies of Pentecost apply especially to Israel. Be sure to read them. There will be no reversal of Pentecost, nor any reversal of Calvary or the Resurrection of Christ.
I do not believe it will be a time when Israel returns to the “weak and beggarly elements” of the Law which none of their “fathers could do.” I believe it will be a time when they embrace God as He has now been revealed through His Son. There will be one fold and one Shepherd. The branch that was broken off will be grafted into the same root and fatness that we Gentiles partake of. And Israel, as a nation, will partake of the Holy Spirit in the same way that the early Church did in Acts 2. And God will remove the wicked Jews from His chosen earthly nation, and those will be “cut off from among their people” forever.
“By the power of the Holy Spirit this will cause a number so great no man could number it in that day to be brought to Heaven out of the Tribulation.”
It is odd that this seems to be the pretrib consensus, but at the same time it is also claimed that restrainer is the Holy Spirit who is taken out indirectly by the taking out of the Church. How can you reconcile this contradiction.
“But the coming for His Ekklesia is to be in the air, not on the ground.”
So is His coming at the END of the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24.
“I’m afraid you preconceived notions are getting in the way again, causing you to conflate two distinctly different phenomena.”
The difference is that I supported my position with scripture, in Luke 21:28.
“The disciples on the mount of Olives asked for what will be the signs of the end, not the beginning of the Day of The Lord. Indeed, at the end of the Tribulation, Jesus will be descending from the clouds, not to the clouds as at the Rapture”
As I’ve illustrated from scripture, the End is the same time as the Day of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:24
Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
Isaiah 2:12
the day of the Lord of hosts
Shall come upon everything proud and lofty,
Upon everything lifted up—
And it shall be brought low—
I recommend reading verses 10-21 for a clearer picture of the Day of the Lord. It is not the beginning of sorrows or the Great Tribulation. It is not the first 6 seals of Revelation. It is wrath. It is fire. In fact, a study on the topic of the Day of the Lord is essential.
“read the Olivet Discourse given that evening to the four Disciples on The Mount of Olives. Note carefully the words ‘before these things’ and ‘after these things’. Jesus hints at the Chruch Age interval mystery.”
I don’t need to reconcile the Bible to a systematic error concerning dispensationalism. None of the Jewish believers in the New Testament ceased to be Jewish. None abandoned Moses or the Law. None abandoned their national identity as men of Israel. Are the apostles of the Church not part of the Church? Why did Christ say they would sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel?
“What is the purpose of the Rapture of The Bride of Christ, The Body of Christ?”
To be with Him.
John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
He will come and rescue His bride from the antichrist, who will be Satan incarnate. Christ will rescue His bride from the false Christians who commit the sin of Judas — betrayal.
He will come at a time like the days of Sodom. There will be perversion. And God will come and destroy the earth with fire. He will come like the days of Noah. The earth was thrown off its axis. The waters above the sky were broken up. It was a cataclysm. But the one coming will be a cataclysm of fire and asteroids raining down from the sky. The very orbit of the earth will be altered. These are not Revelation 20-22. These are seventh seal judgments contained in the trumpets and then in the bowls. None of these things happen in the SIX SPECIFIC SIGNS Jesus gave us to herald His imminent arrival.
Again, these are in the Olivet discourse and Revelation 6. You simply cannot place the description of Jesus coming at the END of the great tribulation, as described in the Olivet discourse, at the end of the judgements described in Revelation.
The ones in Revelation 6 match exactly the Olivet discourse. The Olivet discourse is completed by the return of Christ. NONE of the subsequent trumpet and bowl judgements are spoken of in the Olivet discourse. I don’t see how it is possible to ignore such a blatantly clear message.
I am not describing to you some systematic paradigm of my timeline for the rapture. I am going straight to the source: Six signs of Christ’s coming. Seven signs of the End arriving. The seven signs are the six plus Christ’s return itself being the 7th sign.
No fire from heaven. No demonic creatures unleashed from hell. No blood to the horse bridle. No loathsome boils. No hailstones mixed with fire out of the sky. No star called Wormwood poisoning the waters.
Angels administering judgments of fire comes precisely when the Lord returns for His bride. I again refer you to 1 Thessalonians 1. You have repeatedly ignored how this and Christ’s coming at the END of the Great Tribulation line up with the rapture. I’ve given you numerous, specific examples and reasons.
Generalized, blanket statements are not answers. Saying how I’m misunderstanding and bringing my preconceptions into it, is not an answer. I’m using the scriptures, point-by-point. You and Dr. Ice are using a paradigm which is forced upon various passages.
I’m not trying to be harsh, hateful, or insulting. I’m just puzzled that you can’t see it. It was my willingness to set aside the diagrams and timelines and supposed systematic principles of the pretrib view and just look at what the scriptures actually say, that led me to break free of this error. That’s not a preconception. Pretrib WAS my preconception. It was letting go of it that allowed me to see the plain message.
“Did Paul answer this for us in 2Thess2 for the members of the Ekklesia, the Body of Believers?”
2 Thessalonians 2 is one of the strongest examples of prewrath teaching. The order of events could not be more clear: first the apostasia happens, then the revealing of antichrist, then the Day of the Lord.
Dr. Ice and other pretib proponents have adopted the view that the apostasia is the rapture. This is impossible for two reasons. That would mean that Paul was arguing to the Thessalonians that the gathering together to Christ and Day of the Lord had not come because the gathering together to the Lord had not happened. Not very reassuring.
Second, the antichrist is clearly being restrained to be revealed at an exact time. And that time is at the abomination of desolation. Yet, the Day of the Lord comes AFTER this, according to this very passage. Please tell me how it can be any other way.
Sometimes, when it is convenient, men like Dr. Ice imagine the timeline of future events to allow for Christ to return and then a large amount of time to elapse before Daniel’s seventieth week begins. Then, at other times, when it is convenient, the order and proximity of events like these three get muddled up completely.
The WHOLE point Paul is making is how critical the order of these events is. The Day of the Lord can not come until AFTER the abomination of desolation. It is that simple. And all other passages 100% support the return of the Lord happening precisely at the arrival of the Day of the Lord.
I realize that my asserting so in the strongest possible way is offensive to some. Some pretribbers are so convinced of their beliefs that they make them equivalent with the scriptures and consider any dissenter to be a heretic. God will vindicate His word. This is the truth of the matter. And when Christians see the abomination of desolation, they will know. Some may get disillusioned like the Thessalonians because they will wrongly conclude they missed the rapture. Some will admit they were wrong and adjust. And some will have been expecting it and will see this as a major sign of the imminence of Christ’s return having finally arrived. It is better to be properly prepared and expecting what the Bible says is really going to happen as we “see the Day approaching.”
Now it is evident why the Lord woke me up so I will go to my desk and offer a reply to, and to any reading these exchanges.
>>I doubt if any one would deliberately mock the words of Jesus, >>
Using it as stand up comedy is not mockery??? It’s unbelievable to fail to see the lack of reverence.
Many of your off-the-mark assertions can be corrected by just noting to whom Jesus speaks and about what time period. That's why I offered the Luke 21 essay. Have a pleasant evening. I am abandoning this thread.
Why not post the scripture passage which verifies your claim in sentence 32? We will read it.
Make that sentence #2. Tired fingers.
My FRiend, you posted, "So even if there were a rapture it would have to be at the last day rather than before any believer got a hurt finger." How do you know Jesus was not referring to the Last Day of the Age of Grace, the church age, the Age building the Body of Christ / The Bride of Christ?
Using it as stand up comedy is not mockery???
It just depends on what the meaning is to the individual, some scriptures are so plain that there is not room for much disagreement but they are not all like that.
John 16
5 But I told you not these things from the beginning, because I was with you. And now I go to him that sent me, and none of you asketh me: Whither goest thou?
6 But because I have spoken these things to you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7 But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
8 And when he is come, he will convince the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment. 9 of sin: because they believed not in me. 10 And of justice: because I go to the Father; and you shall see me no longer. 11 And of judgment: because the prince of this world is already judged.
Jesus had to go so that his holy spirit could come, as in spiritual kingdom.
In verse 10 Jesus said because I go to the Father; and you shall see me no longer.
John 6:40
And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up in the last day.
Acts 3
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
25 For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 26 And the enemy death shall be destroyed last: For he hath put all things under his feet.
After the last enemy which is death is destroyed, only then can we look for Christ to lift us up.
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Jesus is not using these verses in explaining his other predictions but only telling us that the earth and heavens will not remain the same forever.
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Those who believe in Christ have no need to fear as we will be raised up at the last day before this destruction of the earth happens.
Remember that a thousand years is like a day.
How do you know Jesus was not referring to the Last Day of the Age of Grace, the church age, the Age building the Body of Christ / The Bride of Christ?
Acts 3
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
1 Cor 15
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
When Jesus left he told the apostles that they would not see him for awhile but then would see him as he was going to send them a comforter ( the holy spirit) but they would not see him no more.
John 16
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
1 cor 15
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Christ sent his holy spirit after he went to the father and it has been with us nearly two thousand years a spiritual reign.
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