Christ in the Eucharist

There you go again, no substance or acceptance of the Word of Jesus. Just a projection of your own distorted view of God’s Word.

Perhaps if you reread the article, you may gain some understanding of Catholic teaching, and not just your negative anti-Catholic attitude.

Jesus first repeated what he said, then summarized: “‘I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’” (John 6:51–52).

His listeners were stupefied because now they understood Jesus literally—and correctly. He again repeated his words, but with even greater emphasis, and introduced the statement about drinking his blood: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him” (John 6:53–56).

No Corrections

Notice that Jesus made no attempt to soften what he said, no attempt to correct “misunderstandings,” for there were none. Our Lord’s listeners understood him perfectly well. They no longer thought he was speaking metaphorically. If they had, if they mistook what he said, why no correction?

On other occasions when there was confusion, Christ explained just what he meant (cf. Matt. 16:5–12). Here, where any misunderstanding would be fatal, there was no effort by Jesus to correct. Instead, he repeated himself for greater emphasis.

In John 6:60 we read: “Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, ‘This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?’” These were his disciples, people used to his remarkable ways. He warned them not to think carnally, but spiritually: “It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life” (John 6:63; cf. 1 Cor. 2:12–14).

But he knew some did not believe. (It is here, in the rejection of the Eucharist, that Judas fell away; look at John 6:64.) “After this, many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him” (John 6:66).

This is the only record we have of any of Christ’s followers forsaking him for purely doctrinal reasons. If it had all been a misunderstanding, if they erred in taking a metaphor in a literal sense, why didn’t he call them back and straighten things out? Both the Jews, who were suspicious of him, and his disciples, who had accepted everything up to this point, would have remained with him had he said he was speaking only symbolically.

But he did not correct these protesters. Twelve times he said he was the bread that came down from heaven; four times he said they would have “to eat my flesh and drink my blood.” John 6 was an extended promise of what would be instituted at the Last Supper—and it was a promise that could not be more explicit. Or so it would seem to a Catholic. But what do Fundamentalists say?

Your comment: “Give it up before it gets worse!” How? Are you threatening me or just unable to support your false teaching?

The teaching of the Catholic Church about the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ are too important give up.

Perhaps if you reread the article, you may gain some understanding of Catholic teaching, and not just your negative anti-Catholic attitude.

Perhaps if opened your eyes and read what i wrote then you would All you are doing is resorting to reiterating a refuted polemic.

His listeners were stupefied because now they understood Jesus literally..No Corrections

Indeed, which is consistent with Jn. 2 in which the Lord said "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up," (John 2:19) without interpreting it at all, leaving the carnally-minded to believe that He was speaking of the physical temple that stood by them, and which He was charged with in His indictment.

Likewise, in Jn. 3:3, the Lord spoke in such an apparently physical way that Nicodemus exclaimed, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" (John 3:4)

And in which, as is characteristic of John, and as seen in Jn. 6:63, the Lord goes on to distinguish btwn the flesh and the Spirit, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit," (John 3:6) leaving Nicodemus to figure it out, requiring seeking, rather than making it clear. Which requires reading more than that chapter, as with Jn. 6, revealing being born spiritually in regeneration. (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9; Eph. 1:13; 2:5)

Likewise in Jn. 4, beside a well of physical water, the Lord spoke to a women seeking such water of a water which would never leave the drinker to thirst again, which again was understood as being physical. But which was subtly inferred to be spiritual to the inquirer who stayed the course, but which is only made clear by reading more of Scriptural revelation.

And thus we see the same manner of revelation in Jn. 6, in which the Lord spoke to souls seeking physical sustenance of a food which would never leave the eater to hunger again. Which again was understood as being physical, but which was subtly inferred to be spiritual to the inquirers who stayed the course. But which is only made clear by reading more of Scriptural revelation.

In so doing the Lord makes living by this "bread" of flesh and blood as analogous to how He lived by the Father, "As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me." (John 6:57)

And the manner by which the Lord lived by the Father was as per Mt. 4:4: "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

And therefore, once again using metaphor, the Lord stated to disciples who thought He was referring to physical bread, "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34)

And likewise the Lord revealed that He would not even be with them physically in the future, but that His words are Spirit and life:

What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:62-63)

And as with those who imagined the Lord was referring to the physical Temple, the Lord left the protoCatholics to go their own way, who seemed to have yet imagined that the Lord was sanctioning a form of cannibalism, or otherwise had no heart for further seeking of the Lord who has "the words of eternal life" as saith Peter, not the flesh, eating of which profits nothing spiritually.

He again repeated his words, but with even greater emphasis, and introduced the statement about drinking his blood: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;

Thus since Jn. 6:53 is as much a unequivocal imperative as other "verily verily" statements, then you must conclude that all who reject the literalistic "Real Presence" interpretation, or who have yet to receive it, do not have spiritual life in them.

And that consuming flesh and blood is how the Scriptures show souls obtaining spiritual life. But instead what Scripture nowhere shows is souls obtaining spiritual life by physical eating anything literal, but by believing the gospel message. Which corresponds to the Lord's words being spirit and life, while eating flesh profits nothing spiritually. "for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse." (1 Corinthians 8:8) Thus on these 2 counts alone the literalistic view in untenable.

On other occasions when there was confusion, Christ explained just what he meant (cf. Matt. 16:5–12)

Wrong. He often left the carnally minded who had no heart for the real meaning to go their way, "That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." (Mark 4:12) But revealing the meaning to true seekers. "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." (Matthew 13:11)

Yet some things were even initially hid from the disciples: "Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying. (Luke 9:44-45)

And understanding is just what the Lord provided for to the apostles in telling them that the Lord in the flesh would not even remain to feed them (and nothing was said about the neoplatonic theory of transubstantiation that was devised to explain a novel "miracle"), but that His words were what souls must ingest: What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:62-63)

And NOWHERE did the apostles preach the Lord's Supper as the or a means to obtain spiritual life, as instead they preached that this is obtained by believing the gospel of grace.

Peter preached “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:43) resulting in the Gentiles believing and being born again.

Referring to this, Peter stated, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:7-9)

And in fact, NT pastors are never even described as dispensing bread as part of their ordained function in the life of the church, and instead the primary work of NT pastors is that of prayer and preaching. (Acts 6:3,4) "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." (2 Timothy 4:2) And which is what is said to "nourish" the souls of believers, and to build them up, and believing it is how the lost obtain life in themselves. (1 Timothy 4:6; Psalms 19:7;Acts 15:7-9; 20:32

Moreover, in contrast this “sacrament” being taught as being "the source and summit of the Christian life" (CCC 1324) “the font of life” the "medicine of immortality," "a kind of consummation of the spiritual life, and in a sense the goal of all the sacraments," through which “the work of our redemption is carried out,” (CCC 1364) with the offering of which being the primary function of her clergy, and around which all else in Catholicism essentially revolves,

Instead it is only manifestly described in one epistle, that of 1Co. 10 and 11. Which shows that fellowship with Christ in His death is through their communal sharing in that meal done in remembrance of Christ's death, not by eating His flesh.

But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. (1 Corinthians 10:20,21)

And how would they have fellowship with devils? Not by consuming the transubstantiated flesh of devils, but by taking part in a feast done in dedication to demons. For they which eat of the sacrifices are partakers of the altar, showing union with the object of this feast and each other, but not because the food has been transubstantiated into that of the entity it is offered to.

And in 1Cor. 11:20-34 while they were supposed to be showing/declaring the Lord's unselfish sacrificial death for the body by unselfishly sharing food with other members of the body of Christ who purchased it with His own sinless shed blood, for it, (Acts 20:28) instead they were both eating independently and effectively treating other members as lepers, and as if the body was not a body, and others were not part of the body for whom Christ died. This is what is being referred to as “not discerning the Lord's body” as a body in which the members are to treat each as blood-bought beloved brethren, as Christ did. Because they were presuming to show the Lord's death for them while acting contrary to it, thus they were eating this bread and drinking the cup of the Lord unworthily, and were chastised for it, some unto death. (1Co. 11:27-32)

Because this was the case and cause of condemnation — that of not recognizing the nature of the corporate body of Christ in independently selfishly eating, versus not recognizing the elements eaten as being the body of Christ — then the apostle's solution was, “Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.” (1 Corinthians 11:33-34)

Therefore once again, to be consistent you must relegate all those who reject reject the literalistic "Real Presence" interpretation as being lost Judas souls.

This is the only record we have of any of Christ’s followers forsaking him for purely doctrinal reasons.

Indeed, as being carnally-minded men who followed Christ "not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled," they understood Christ's use of physical terms as did the Jews in Jn.2, and Nicodemus in Jn. 3, and the women and the disciples initially in Jn. 4, but they ha no heart to seek the meaning, which again was not that the flesh would profit them by giving spiritual life, but His words. For as John in particular shows, it was by believing on the Lord Christ as the So of God and Messiah that one passes from death unto life. (Jn. 5:24; 11:25,26) Which receive life in themselves by faith in the gospel.

Thus nowhere is the Lord's supper preached in the life of the church as the means to obtain spiritual life, and John later writes 4 chapters "that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God, (1 John 5:13) yet any mention of the Lord's supper is completely absent as the means to that, or as evidence that one has believed.

If it had all been a misunderstanding, if they erred in taking a metaphor in a literal sense, why didn’t he call them back and straighten things out?

Again, for the same reason that He allowed Jews to believe that He was speaking of destroying the literal temple of stone, which even the disciples did not realize until after His resurrection. Nor did He clearly explain how the living water was spiritual, or how one is born spiritually, but which we understand in the light of the rest of Scripture.

Likewise that the Lord's Supper is the source and summit of the Christian life, around which all revolves, since the Lord Jesus is really and wholly present—body and blood, soul and divinity—under the appearances of bread and wine via transubstantiation of the elements of bread and wine; And is offered as a atoning sacrifice by a sacerdotal priesthood, and is consumed in order to obtain spiritual and eternal life, simply fails to be established in the light of the rest of Scripture, interpretive of the gospels, in stark contrast to a metaphorical position.

Your comment: “Give it up before it gets worse!” How? Are you threatening me or just unable to support your false teaching?

What insolence! It is I who have supported what is manifestly the only correct teaching btwn the two, while all you did was ask how God created man, which did not work, and then engaged in mere arguments by bare assertions.

The teaching of the Catholic Church about the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ are too important give up.

At least you can admit what compels the "conclusions" of RCs here, which is not that of objectively examining the evidence in order to ascertain the veracity of RC teaching, which the faithful are not to do, as assurance of faith is based upon the premise of the ensured veracity of Rome. Under which tradition, Scripture and history only assuredly consist of and mean what she decrees they do.

Which premise is based upon the presuppositions that an assuredly (if conditionally) infallible magisterium is essential for determination and assurance of Truth, and that being the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) means that such is that assuredly infallible magisterium. Thus any who knowingly dissent from the latter must be in rebellion to God.

But which is contrary to how the church began, and has led to the accretions of traditions of men being taught as doctrine of Rome, to the delusion of multitudes.

The end.

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