Posted on 03/07/2015 7:24:03 AM PST by Arthur McGowan
Art,
You have some interesting points there.
“What does “glorified” mean?”
We know exactly what it means from the Apostle John, who saw the glorified Christ.
“Is it a univocal term meaning only “radiant with overwhelming VISIBLE glory”?”
Above.
“Was the “glorification” of Jesus a single moment—before which he was absolutely without glory, and after which his glory necessarily was overwhelmingly radiant? Of course not.”
No. He set His glory aside, veiled to take on human flesh. After his ascension, God exalted and glorified Him.
“You ignore the Transfiguration, which occurred BEFORE the “glorification” of Jesus.”
No, I do not. I thought about the Transfiguration before I posted. It is worth noting that He was transfigured.
Matthew records this, “And he was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun and his clothes became white as light.”
and this was just a peek behind the veil. He is not now transfigured, but exalted and glorified.
“You ignore the fact that Mary Magdalene mistook the risen Jesus for the gardener.”
This seems to support the distinction between risen from the dead and ascended and glorified.
“Obviously, the presence of Jesus may or may not be accompanied by VISIBLE glory, as God chooses.”
No, after the ascension and glorification, this does not appear to be the case.
“The absence of visible glory is no argument against the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.”
Oh, sure it is. Some day, you will hopefully be able to compare for yourself. I certainly wish it for you.
“Can anything we do compare to His Glory? It is He Who is in the Sacrament. We do our best to honor Him.”
And this is one important reason we are not to make idols. They always fall short of the real glory of God and the real power of God and the reality of every other attribute He has, resulting in a perversion of His image. Good point.
I don’t detect any sort of coherent argument in all this. God can do anything he wills. He certainly is free to manifest his glory to us in a visible manner, or not, as he chooses. He is certainly not required to fit himself into your Procrustean bed.
“They always fall short of the real glory of God and the real power of God and the reality of every other attribute He has, resulting in a perversion of His image. “
“Be thou perfect as thy Father is perfect” said Jesus, knowing we are not perfect and can never be. We do the best we can, asking Him to prosper the work of our hands. The builders of the Ark of the Covenant had never seen angels; they went by a description and what they knew as craftsmen. It was done with love and the talent God gave them: and, most of all, for His Glory.
I fully agree with that. How can one put limits on a Good Who is Almighty, Omniscient, Infinite, with attributes we will never comprehend even if we stand before His Throne for all eternity?
“The builders of the Ark of the Covenant had never seen angels; they went by a description and what they knew as craftsmen.”
Don’t forget that they were commanded to do so.
Monstronces are made in supply factories to appear as something they are not and were not commanded to be.
“I don’t detect any sort of coherent argument in all this. God can do anything he wills. He certainly is free to manifest his glory to us in a visible manner, or not, as he chooses. He is certainly not required to fit himself into your Procrustean bed.”
You do realize your argument fails because you claim it can justify anything. The reality is that He didn’t do “anything”. He did specific things.
Against your argument is what He commanded and what He has revealed. Neither of which supports your claim Arthur.
Against your argument is the Scripture showing Christ’s glory today. I did notice you edited that out from the last exchange.
“...Christ’s glory today...”
Where have you seen that?
“...Christ’s glory today...”
“Where have you seen that?
...........................
The Holy Bible.
“...Christ’s glory today...”
“Where have you seen that?
...........................
It occurs to me that it may be helpful to post some passages that indicate Christ has already received glory after His ascension...
First, during His earthly ministry, before His ascension, the Apostle John wrote, “7:39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”
Comment. I think Catholics believe they now have the Holy Spirit? This is only possible, according to John, if Jesus had already been glorified. Note that it does not say that the Spirit had not been given because Christ has not been *resurrected*. John wrote, *glorified*.
Christ was also exalted above all and glorified. In Philippians, Paul writes...
“Therefore God also highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name; that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”
Comment: For a little while, Christ was made lower than the angels. He willingly set aside His glory and was born into a human body - the ultimate humility for the Creator to become part of the creation. It was temporary. Philippians describes the ultimate exaltation by the Father above all else.
The writer of Hebrews says..
“2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.”
The crowning with glory and honor happened after the time He spent on earth “lower than the angels” and after His death.
And of course, John saw Christ revealed in His glory in heaven and wrote of it in Revelation 1:
“I was caught up in spirit on the Lord’s day[i] and heard behind me a voice as loud as a trumpet, 11 which said, “Write on a scroll[j] what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.” 12 [k]Then I turned to see whose voice it was that spoke to me, and when I turned, I saw seven gold lampstands 13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man,[l] wearing an ankle-length robe, with a gold sash around his chest. 14 The hair of his head was as white as white wool or as snow,[m] and his eyes were like a fiery flame. 15 His feet were like polished brass refined in a furnace,[n] and his voice was like the sound of rushing water. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars.[o] A sharp two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest.”
A Host is delicate and fragile. He, that is, Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, requires something to safely hold Him. Does He not then deserve the best we are capable of giving Him? We adore Him, not the monstrance! Not all monstrances come off an assembly line, either. Some are fashioned by the world's finest craftsmen- a labor of love. The Host needs something to protect Him. What would you suggest? Do you not believe in the Real Presence? If you don't, then why does it matter to you how we honor Jesus? If you don't believe, then you don't know how much Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament can mean to a true Catholic. When He is exposed and placed in that monstrance, it is a sign for us to kneel and adore Him, not the vessel in which He is contained and protected.
“A Host is delicate and fragile. He, that is, Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, requires something to safely hold Him.”
It ain’t He. If It were He, you’d be blinded by His glory.
“Does He not then deserve the best we are capable of giving Him? We adore Him, not the monstrance!”
No the monstronce is there to make the host look like it is glorious. It is a demonstration that there is no actual glory.
“The Host needs something to protect Him. What would you suggest?”
Since you are asking for suggestions, I suggest you look to the actions of Christ, who picked up common unleavened bread at the Passover meal and broke it. It symbolized His body being broken. He wasn’t worried about protecting His body. He was purposefully breaking it in order to demonstrate His sacrifice to come. Did He use a monstronce? No. Did He worry that matzo is fragile? No.
“Do you not believe in the Real Presence?”
I believe there is a real spiritual presence in the Lord’s Supper that believers share as commanded.
“If you don’t, then why does it matter to you how we honor Jesus?”
This is a discussion thread and not a caucus thread. I am discussing this thread as a Christian. I am not discussing your personal practice or belief or feelings. Please don’t mistake a conversation about Truth with your practice or feelings about your practice. If that is a concern, there are caucus threads where members of your denomination can share valued beliefs with each other.
“If you don’t believe, then you don’t know how much Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament can mean to a true Catholic.”
As a former catholic - and alter boy, I believe I do understand. As someone with family members I love who are catholic, I believe I do understand. Nor do I discount the depth of that feeling.
That is outside the scope of my comments.
best.
He's God. He can do anything. He can conceal His Glory if He so chooses. And He does in the Blessed Sacrament.
"No the monstronce is there to make the host look like it is glorious. It is a demonstration that there is no actual glory."
If the Blessed Sacrament were put in a plain, circular case, people walking in would have less chance of being aware that He was exposed, and may not behave with the extra-ordinary reverence that Jesus deserves when placed on the altar to be publicly adored. Lying flat on a white altar cloth, he might not even be seen.
"Since you are asking for suggestions, I suggest you look to the actions of Christ, who picked up common unleavened bread at the Passover meal and broke it. It symbolized His body being broken. He wasn’t worried about protecting His body. He was purposefully breaking it in order to demonstrate His sacrifice to come. Did He use a monstronce? No. Did He worry that matzo is fragile? No."
Jesus was sitting at the table when He initiated the Sacrament, and thus had no need of a monstrance. There is a difference in texture between unleavened bread, a matsoh cracker, and an unconsecrated Communion wafer, which is thin and pressed out so that it may be easily consumed. The unconsecrated hosts are more fragile than the other two. Each particle of a Consecrated Host, is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ in all His Fullness. A breeze in the church may cause a Host to fall from the Ciborium- which is why it is covered. Jesus, in the monstrance, is both upright and thus easily visible, as well as protected. Jesus allowed Himself to be crucified; that does not mean that we should be careless with His vulnerable Presence in the Blessed Sacrament.
"As a former catholic - and alter boy, I believe I do understand. As someone with family members I love who are catholic, I believe I do understand. Nor do I discount the depth of that feeling."
I don't know you or your family, or why you opted to leave, but I can say that for me, it's been a lifelong journey, and my faith in what God teaches through His Church, has grown throughout my life with experience, learning and years. For me, this is the Truth, rather than self-interpretation. Some of it's on my homepage, if you're curious...
Peace be with you!
The Second Person of the Trinity is/was glorified from eternity, during his life on earth as God and man, and now in heaven as God and man.
Equally.
The glorification of Jesus by the Father is utterly unrelated to what we may see or not see when we look at the Eucharist.
“He’s God. He can do anything.”
Generally, when you get to the point where you try to support a non-Biblical belief by saying, “God can do anything,” it is a clear sign it’s all you have - meaning nothing Biblical.
“If the Blessed Sacrament were put in a plain, circular case, people walking in would have less chance of being aware that He was exposed, and may not behave with the extra-ordinary reverence that Jesus deserves when placed on the altar to be publicly adored.”
Which makes my point clear, that there is not glory there, as describe by the Apostle John as the true state of Christ now - GLORIFIED and EXALTED above all. If it were Christ, no one would miss it. Prophecy says that when He returns, everyone will see Him - everyone.
“Jesus was sitting at the table when He initiated the Sacrament, and thus had no need of a monstrance. “
Nor do Christians.
“Each particle of a Consecrated Host, is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ in all His Fullness.”
I realize you believe this, but hundreds of millions of Christians read the Bible and see that it isn’t there.
“For me, this is the Truth, rather than self-interpretation.”
I am not dependent on self-interpretation alone. I am in a gathering of believers and we are gifted by God with Elders, Deacons and Pastor-Techers, as well as all other spiritual gifts.
Best to you.
I said "God is Almighty and can do anything."
He is omniscient, knowing all things; always existed and always shall exist; creator of all things, visible and invisible; almighty, Love Itself, and the list goes on, as He is infinite. He is One God in Three Divine Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
That's what my Catholic Faith is based on. Everything stems from there, and everything in summary returns to it. Not written verbatim in the Bible? Perhaps not. But it is the sum and substance of Scripture.
Peace be with you!
“That’s what my Catholic Faith is based on. Everything stems from there, and everything in summary returns to it. Not written verbatim in the Bible? Perhaps not. But it is the sum and substance of Scripture. “
If that is the basis for your faith, then you have no need of the Scriptures for any reason. You can just say, “Well, God can do anything!!”
You can claim pizza in your shoe makes you spiritually alive. Others may call that claim into question because God revealed everything we need to know for salvation and Christian maturity. You will simply reply, “God is Almighty and can do anything!”
Actually, there are many things God cannot do, but we’ll save that for another discussion.
And...
If all you have is “God is Almighty and can do anything,” then there is no point discussing anything with you at all that we know about Christ through Scripture, anything about the Church, anything about the future, anything about our faith. You are clearly not interested in that, from your declaration. OK then.
So I agree, there is nothing else that can be discussed spiritually or Biblically with you.
If you do not believe that God is almighty, then, no, we can't discuss. His infinite attributes are non-negotiable.
Look at Scripture as a whole, not word-by-word, and you will see that. The pizza in the shoe remark, ah, it can slide.
Having been an altar boy, and having people close to you who are Catholic doesn't mean you understand what it's all about. It takes time, faith, patience, and yes, we also are eligible for the 7 Gifts, 12 Fruits, and extraordinary Gifts of the Holy Spirit.
It was interesting, and I wish you the best, but if you don't believe God is almighty, perfect, infinite, and more than we can imagine, we really do have nothing to discuss.
P.S. Take a look at Job 38 when you get a chance.
“It was interesting, and I wish you the best, but if you don’t believe God is almighty, perfect, infinite, and more than we can imagine, we really do have nothing to discuss. “
Of course I believe those things Grateful2God.
[Having said that, God can NEVER act against His nature. He cannot act evily. Cannot be less than just. Etc. So there are things He cannot do. That, as I said above is another conversation.]
To justify what you prefer to believe, under the banner of “God can do anything,” negates revealed truth.
Best.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.