Posted on 02/14/2015 1:16:14 PM PST by RnMomof7
Agree to disagree.
“Agree to disagree.”
I agree.
:-)
What goes around comes around.
The same measure is used by Catholics against Prots.
Substantiate the assertion.
Rev. 5:8, Rev. 8:3–4. Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).
Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).
You clearly don't understand why God was born in the flesh...
If one is lost and needs to get somewhere, the best thing to do is to find someone who knows the way better than anyone else. Most of mankind is lost, and needs to find Jesus. Mary is the one person who knows the way better than anyone else, because she and Jesus shared the same body for 9 months, Jesus was subject to her for 30 years, they probably even look alike, and they are of one accord.
What nonsense...That's why Mary at the wedding said to Jesus, 'Do what I say'???
Getting close to Mary is the fastest and best way to get close to Jesus. It's pure folly to even think that by getting close to Mary you are somehow getting farther away from Jesus. Jesus got his sacred Body and his precious Blood from MARY!
Act_20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
What a goofy statement and deceiving statement...Babies and their mother's do not exchange blood...The blood comes from genes...It could be the mother's gene or the father's gene...You are providing false information which can deceive people into believing that Mary has a connection to God other than she was just a vessel for Jesus to be carried in...
And Jesus hears our prayers when we proffer them to him, alone...
” In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16). “
And yet not a single passage of Scripture:
Commands us to do so... ever.
Teaches that departed saints intercede for us.
Demonstrates the Apostles or other believers doing this.
Encourages believers to do this.
Teaches that departed saints can hear anything addressed to them from earth.
Teaches that departed saints pray in heaven for things on earth.
Nor do we see it as part of the Apostles teaching before 100 ad.
Nor do we see it in art outside the church before 100ad.
Nor do we see secular writings that demonstrate this as a Christian belief before 100 ad.
It is a vacuum.
It is a teaching made up out of pagan belief, apart from the Scriptures.
Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.
How many times has this been presented? Heck how many times have I presented it?
Here is another one (Matt. 18:10). "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven." Everyone has an Angel watching out for them.
I am not asking you to agree with the evidence, but at least say that Catholics have presented Scriptural evidence.
I trust that you will NEVER ever offer evidence to support a non-Catholic and that if you should EVER see one of them commit this most grievous of sins that you will immediately rush to the Catholics defense and severely admonish the non Catholic.
You're so right, since we all know the U.S. Conference of Bishops meets regularly to decide which key words to add to threads on FreeRepublic.
Ok...let's break this down and keep it in context.
Rev. 5:8, Rev. 8:3–4.
Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).
Mary is not an angel. Angels are separate created beings and are not people so trying to apply this verse to justify praying to Mary fails. Secondly, we're not talking about children....we're talking about grown adults. In either case we are not to pray to angels anymore than we are to pray to Mary. Our prayers should be directed to Christ.
Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5),
and as such we should only pray to Him. There is no need for mary to "intervene" in our salvation or any of the other things catholicism claims she does.
Why would the catholic want to replace, or probably in their worldview, supplement, what Jesus is doing for us? Is the Second Person of the Trinity, Who was, is and is to come again, Who has always existed, Who created all we know, Who died on the cross for us, in some way deficient??
In the catholic worldview Mary is replacing Jesus in this capacity with all of the prayers to her for her intercession in the affairs of man. This is where the fifth marian dogma, if passed, will elevate mary officially to the position of mediatrix; that is currently what Jesus does for us. To imply that Mary's help is needed undermines the full confidence we are to have in Jesus. Only one person I can think of would want that to happen. His name is Satan.
but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4).
On this there is no agreement....however from the conversation we've been enjoying, the fundamental difference is that Christians do not pray to our fellow Christians....we pray with them. Catholicism prays to mary and the saints who've gone on before us.
Nor do we rely upon them for our salvation or "place our hopes" in them nor devote ourselves fully to them as the catholic does when they pray to mary and adhere to the belief she is taking an active role in our salvation and even, according to some catholic writers, "tells" Jesus to save some and He then acts.
In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).
There is no indication that James was suggesting we pray to believers who have gone on to Heaven.
For the verses in Revelation regarding the saints assumes 1)that they are able to hear our prayers, which there isn't any Biblical indication to suggest they can, or 2) but assume they can, again we are not shown to pray to fellow believers in any capacity.
The prayers of the saints noted in Revelation appear to be those believers who are already in Heaven and who will be in Heaven. Revelation 6:9 strongly suggests they are saints who were killed for their faith and have gone to Heaven. So the two passages you referenced, 5:8, Rev. 8:3–4 more than likely refer to them.
Regardless of their status, we are not to pray to them, nor is there a Biblical injunction to pray to those who've gone on before us.
Let's not forget the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer still on earth. He is constantly interceding for us with words and groanings we cannot understand. He is our Advocate and Helper. And if the fifth marian dogma is passed, He will be "replaced" by mary in this capacity.
And this takes us back to the whole problem with the catholic position on mary. Slowly but surely the rcc is elevating mary to positions of authority which are not granted to her by the Word.
This is why Christians reject catholic tradition. It leads to such false teaching as what we see on mary and what is being proposed for mary.
Absolutely false. The SSPX is not and has never been in schism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vJ0HP5ZMXE
The thread is about the Papacy and how it came about...not Protestant or otherwise churches....It would seem a attempt to draw the topics to Protestant churches is a diversion. Might be good to stay with topic at hand.
So...kinda like what you have been doing on this thread?
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