The Once-born and the Twice-born

Man: The Dwelling Place of God ^ | Some time ago | A.W.Tozer

[LearsFool]

I read your post, thanks for it. Don't have time to reply tonight, but will do my best to write back in the morning.

Some of what you wrote seemed abbreviated, as if you might've wanted to elaborate more fully. If that's the case, please feel free to. I'm not among those with short attention spans. :-) Plus, it helps me understand others' positions better when they explain thoroughly.

Meanwhile, here's something to consider: We're told that Jesus "breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost", but we're not told that they received it immediately. We are told, however, that they received it on Pentecost. Which fits also with the following:

"For John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence." - Acts 1:5

"But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you" - Acts 1:8

[Iscool]

Meanwhile, here's something to consider: We're told that Jesus "breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost", but we're not told that they received it immediately. We are told, however, that they received it on Pentecost. Which fits also with the following:

I don't disagree with that...

Some of what you wrote seemed abbreviated, as if you might've wanted to elaborate more fully.

I am guilty of that...I try to get what I want to say in the least amount of space...To prevent people from skipping over what I post due to it being too lengthy...Actually I don't really even know if that's an issue...

[mrobisr]

There is one common thread in every scenario you have. Water would have killed if not for God’s Love, Mercy, and Grace. The water didn’t save them blood did, but it did symbolize their coming out of the grave (death, burial, and resurrection) that I agree completely.

1. Water killed (blood) every living thing on Earth except what was protected by the Ark(God).
2. The water would have killed Moses, but the basket saved him(God).
3. The water killed the Egyptian Army(blood), but God saved the Israeli’s from the water.
4. Not really sure about this reference, but he was physically sick and due to a miracle became a believer in the God of Israel.
5 & 6. Jonah would have died in the water if not protected by the fish(God). Actually by Scripture v.16 the men then made a sacrifice(blood) it wasn’t water.

Jonah 1:16-17 Amplified Bible (AMP)

16 Then the men [reverently and worshipfully] feared the Lord exceedingly, and they offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made vows.

17 Now the Lord had prepared and appointed a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Baptism is a symbol of faith in God, the resurrection, and the cleansing of the conscience.

Why was Jesus Baptized for he was sin free. Scripture tells us to fulfill all righteousness. And how do we know what that is just look at Abraham as he was credited with righteousness.

Matthew 3:15 Amplified Bible (AMP)

15 But Jesus replied to him, Permit it just now; for this is the fitting way for [both of] us to fulfill all righteousness [that is, to perform completely whatever is right]. Then he permitted Him.

Genesis 15:6 Amplified Bible (AMP)

6 And he [Abram] believed in (trusted in, relied on, remained steadfast to) the Lord, and He counted it to him as righteousness (right standing with God).

Romans 4:3-5 Amplified Bible (AMP)

3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed in (trusted in) God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness (right living and right standing with God).

4 Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him).

5 But to one who, not working [by the Law], trusts (believes fully) in Him Who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited to him as righteousness (the standing acceptable to God).

We are commanded to Baptism and thus if we accept Jesus Christ in our heart we want to please him and follow his commands. We want everyone to see our faith and our acceptance of God through Jesus Christ or at least I did and others I have talked to did also. We are also commanded to help the widows, orphans, and the Jewish poor. All this is a result of being saved that the Book of James refers to as good works.

James 2:21-23 Amplified Bible (AMP)

21 Was not our forefather Abraham [shown to be] justified (made acceptable to God) by [his] works when he brought to the altar as an offering his [own] son Isaac?

22 You see that [his] faith was cooperating with his works, and [his] faith was completed and reached its supreme expression [when he implemented it] by [good] works.

23 And [so] the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed in (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on) God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness (as conformity to God’s will in thought and deed), and he was called God’s friend.

[Zuriel]

**Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?**

**So we can change around the scripture a little bit to get it to mean what we want it to mean or we can leave it as it as and see how it works out that way...**

‘Change around scripture’ is exactly what you are doing with this next statement:

**And then you imply that withstanding God’s command has something to do with water baptism...It doesn’t...The command was for Peter to go to a Gentile and preach the gospel to him...That is what Peter could not withstand...**

Foreasmuch THEN (past tense)....as God GAVE (past tense)...them the like gift.....what was I, that I COULD WITHSTAND (present tense).

Peter is relating the story in the way it progressed.

**We don’t know when Cornelius ended up getting baptized with water...No doubt he, like me, had to go to a place where there was enough water to get immersed...And how do I know that???**

**Joh_3:23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.**

Cornelius lived in Caesarea, right next to the Mediteranean Sea. Also, water is a requirement of life everywhere. The delayed for days baptisms (even in oneness church assemblies) is not very biblical.

**And again, baptism ain’t water...
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:**

Instead of changing around scripture, just skip one when convenient, such as some rather critical words at the end of verse 20:

“..wherein a few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”

**And again, baptism ain’t water...**

When it’s perfomed by those sent by God, it is water baptism IN the name of Jesus, FOR the remission of sins.

God handles the Spirit baptism.

Here’s a sidenote to ponder (if only for a second):

Jesus Christ called the wine his ‘blood’. It is somewhat interesting that his first recorded miracle is the turning of water into wine. EVERYTHING he did had a spiritual meaning. After all, “the flesh profiteth nothing”.

[Zuriel]

**There is one common thread in every scenario you have. Water would have killed if not for God’s Love, Mercy, and Grace. The water didn’t save them blood did, but it did symbolize their coming out of the grave (death, burial, and resurrection) that I agree completely.**

Water baptism is death and buriel with Jesus Christ. It is the Spirit that powers the resurrection.

**1. Water killed (blood) every living thing on Earth except what was protected by the Ark(God).**

And Peter said that the water was God’s instrument to save eight souls, which is the same instrument he expects his ministers to use to bury souls with Jesus (in his name).

**2. The water would have killed Moses, but the basket saved him(God).**

Baby Moses was comdemned to death, but the water was where the basket was placed to hide him from destruction. Over a period of time he surely would have died in the river, if not pulled from it. He then began a new life.

**3. The water killed the Egyptian Army(blood), but God saved the Israeli’s from the water.**

Blood saved them from the first born curse. Water is the ‘sea’ in 1Cor. 10:1,2.”.. all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the Sea”.

**4. Not really sure about this reference, but he was physically sick and due to a miracle became a believer in the God of Israel.**

Well, Namann had the rotting skin of leprosy, a death sentence really. He immersed himself in the river, and his skin became like that of a baby. He left his early death sentence in the river.

**5 & 6. Jonah would have died in the water if not protected by the fish(God). Actually by Scripture v.16 the men then made a sacrifice(blood) it wasn’t water.**

Verse 16 comes AFTER the storm ceased. My point is that the curse to the sailors was Jonah, and by casting him into the sea, the sea ceased from it’s raging.

And Jonah was his own curse, destined to die with the sailors. Notice that he didn’t throw himself overboard. Sin doesn’t leave on it’s own. Jesus likened Jonah’s time in the fish as burial, since he used it as a comparison to his own.

I will answer more fully when able, we don’t want a sleepy trucker on the roads, do we?

[Zuriel]

**You still at this ey? Did you simply ignore my post that showed you what the Greek word for “for” meant?**

I’ve given you a LOT to ignore it seems. You seem to be determined to prove that baptism performed by the apostles is sometimes water, but then sometimes it ain’t, portraying Paul as a flipflopper in the process.

I trust that the tranlators used ‘for’ because it is the best suitable word for the passage. What’s the opposite wording?....”To repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ is NOT FOR the remission of sins..”.

ey..I going to hit the hay.

[LearsFool]

I think we're in some disagreement about the baptisms in Acts. For instance, you say, regarding the Ephesians in Acts 19: "They likely weren't baptized 'into' Jesus but were baptized with the Holy Ghost."

What it says though is: "And when they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus." Isn't this the same baptism Paul describes in Romans 6:3? - "Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?"

That's a most interesting passage, as it describes what happens in baptism. Paul supposes someone might come to the wrong conclusion from what he's been saying and ask, "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" After rejecting that erroneous conclusion in the strongest possible terms ("God forbid."), he says, in essence, that anyone who would reach such a conclusion must not understand what happened when he was baptized:

"Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection; knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; for he that hath died is justified from sin." - Rom. 6:3-7

The Christian is dead to sin, Paul says. He died to sin when he joined in Christ's death. He was buried with Christ in baptism. And he was raised with Christ from the water. The old man - the one in bondage to sin - was killed and buried, while the new man that comes up from the grave of baptism is freed (justified or found not-guilty, and released) from the bonds of sin the slave-master.

We might imagine Paul asking this rhetorical question: How can a Christian continue to live bound by the chains of sin, when those chains have been broken and he is set free?!

And when did all this happen, Paul?

Why, when he died with Christ in baptism, of course. That old man - the slave of sin - was crucified with Christ. And a new man - a free man - was raised with Him.

Would you agree with all that?

[CynicalBear]

>>I’ve given you a LOT to ignore it seems.<<

No, you have given me a lot that you don't seem to rightly understand.

>>I trust that the tranlators used ‘for’ because it is the best suitable word for the passage.<<

Well, the same Greek word is used here. Matthew 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Did the fire exist before the tree was cast into the fire? Yes it did.

and here:

Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Did Egypt exist before they took Jesus into Egypt? Yes it did.

That Greek word is used 1774 times in the New Testament and nearly every time is translated into. So being consistent let's see it here:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for into the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Did the remission of sins exist before we are baptised into it? Yes it did.

The word is a Preposition, NOT a verb. Surely you understand the difference.

[LearsFool]

That’s a very good explanation.

So...If I’m a sinner, how do I get into this “remission of sins” state?

[CynicalBear]

>>So...If I’m a sinner, how do I get into this “remission of sins” state?<<

1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

Baptism is a symbol or a picture of what has happened in the life of the person who, by faith, has believed in Jesus Christ and been saved by His grace. It's an outward testimony by which the new Christian gives a public testimony that they have believed in Jesus Christ and have been born again. Being baptized by immersion the believer visually shows the spiritual death, burial, and resurrection of the believer's life. It is not an act that one does to obtain salvation and no one in the New Testament was baptized who did not first believe and put their faith in Jesus Christ. It is a public testimony of salvation.

Baptism in the New Testament always follows salvation by grace through faith it is not part of the causation of salvation or forgiveness.

[LearsFool]

But don’t you see what you’re saying, my friend?

Let’s take your three examples, and see if your logic holds up. You say (and please, correct me if I’m misrepresenting you!) that:

A person doesn’t get into the “remission of sins” state by being baptized.

By the same logic, Joseph, Mary, and Jesus didn’t get into Egypt by fleeing.

And the tree doesn’t get into the fire by being cast there.

Hmm, it appears something’s wrong with your logic. :-)

Because John the baptizer said the tree DOES get in the fire by being cast there, Matthew said Joseph and his wife and child DID get into Egypt by fleeing there, and Peter said sinners DO get into “remission of sins” by being baptized.

You’re right: the fire existed before the tree was cast into it. But the tree certainly wasn’t in it yet.

And you’re right: Egypt existed before Joseph took his family and fled there. But they certainly weren’t in it yet.

And you’re right: “remission of sins” exists before the sinner is baptized. But he certainly isn’t in it yet.

The fire won’t burn the tree that isn’t in it. And Egypt wouldn’t be a safe haven if Joseph and his family weren’t in it. And the “remission of sins” state won’t save anyone who isn’t in it.

[CynicalBear]

Yeah I figured you might try something like that. It’s called human logic or wisdom. You must have forgotten that the Greek word we are discussing is a Preposition not a verb. There is no action taking place. The point in that verse is that the forgiveness already happened. Now if you want to continue believing that an action on man’s part somehow procures the remission of sin I don’t suppose anything is going to change your mind. In that case I suppose you can claim a right to forgiveness because you were baptised. I would remind you however of Paul’s words “Not of works, lest any man should boast”.

[LearsFool]

Of course eis is a preposition. It tells us "where" the verb's action gets us, or points us to what the verb's action achieves, etc.

The casting of the tree gets the tree into the fire. The fleeing of Joseph and his family gets them into Egypt. The baptizing of the sinner gets him into the realm of "remission of sins".

It's interesting that you can see that's true with 2 out of 3, but the 3rd is for some reason simply unacceptable to you.

Well here's a 4th to consider:

"For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." - Matt. 26:28

You say that baptism has nothing to do with the remission of sins. Well, does Jesus' blood have anything to do with remission of sins? The purpose of each is the same. The same thing that is said about Jesus' blood shed - the exact same Greek phrase* translated "for remission of sins" in Matt. 26:28 - is said about baptism in Acts 2:38.

Be baptized ---> for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38)
Blood shed ----> for the remission of sins (Matt. 26:28)

Now tell us, did Jesus shed His blood because everybody's sins had been forgiven already? You say that baptism "is a public testimony of salvation." Was the shedding of Jesus' blood "is a public testimony of salvation"??

Well it must be - according to you - because the Bible says the purpose of Jesus' bloodshed and the purpose of baptism are one and the same.

If we need Jesus' blood, we need baptism. But according to you, eis proves we don't.


* The Greek phrase in both is "eis aphesin hamartion".

[CynicalBear]

>>If we need Jesus' blood, we need baptism.<<

Good luck trying to convince Jesus you deserve forgiveness because you were baptised.

[LearsFool]

Now you're misrepresenting me, my friend. I hope that was unintentional.

The reason I want you to understand about baptism is so that you can obtain the gift of salvation. Baptism isn't a way to "earn salvation" or "deserve forgiveness". It is the way Jesus set in place for us to receive the gift He wants to give us.

It is where the slave of sin, the "old man", is put to death, and we are freed from that bondage to live a new life (Rom. 6). It is where Jesus performs the operation which circumcises our hearts:

"in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead." - Col. 2:11-12

This operation is not one we perform on ourselves. What would you think if somebody told you, "I fixed my own heart problem!" and then you found out all he did was change into the hospital gown and lie on the operating table while surgeons and assistants performed the open-heart surgery?

Well that's what we do - we allow Jesus to perform the operation while we merely submit ourselves into His hands in baptism. Is that anything to boast about? "We DESERVE salvation now! We did WORKS to earn it!" We'd sound silly saying such a thing, wouldn't we?

[CynicalBear]

>>The reason I want you to understand about baptism is so that you can obtain the gift of salvation.<<

I don't care how many words you try to use. If man has to acquire salvation by performing an act he is earning it. I will simply repeat. Good luck convincing Christ that were baptised so deserve forgiveness and salvation. After all, you did your part right?

[LearsFool]

Is believing on Jesus a work?

Is it a work required for one to receive salvation?

Is it a work which “earns” salvation?

[Zuriel]

**No, you have given me a lot that you don’t seem to rightly understand.**

That’s a good of a dodge as any.

**The word is a Preposition, NOT a verb. Surely you understand the difference.**

You can’t see the forest for the trees.
You can’t see the forest into the trees.

Same result. (a suggestion: you could come back and read those two lines again after reading the rest of this post)

Baptism is the verb, but you seem to want to interpret when it means water baptism, or not.

I’ve proven to you and others that Paul water baptized plenty of folks. You, and those like minded, readily jump on 1Cor. 1:17 to say Paul didn’t water baptize, or at least saw it as unecessary.

Which is a diss on Matt. 28:19, Mark 16:16, and the various accounts of souls being baptized by God’s messengers.

Look at the response to Peter preaching to the unsaved souls in Acts 2:37 (keeping in mind that these folks had just been thoroughly taught who Jesus Christ is).

“Now when they HEARD this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethern, what shall we do?”

Now you are faced with Acts 2;38, and MUST PROVE that ‘baptism’ in not in water, to satisfy your ‘no works’ doctrine (when it is not ‘our own works’ at all, but obedience to God. Rom. 6:17).

The problem with that is the cases in Acts that directly mention water baptism in the name of Jesus, or make it very obvious by the actions taking place, such as:

1. The Samaritans believed, and then were baptized. 8:12
2. Simon the sorcerer believed, and then was baptized. 8:13
3. The eunuch believed, and then was baptized. 8:36-38
4. Saul/Paul believed, and ‘arose, and was baptized’. 9:18. (Second account: ‘arise, and be baptized’ 22:16. He had to arise. Why?)
5. Cornelius and household believed, received the Holy Ghost, and were then baptized...in water...in the name of the Lord. 10:46-48
6. Crispus, and others of Corinth, believed and were baptized. 18:8 (I have already proved earlier that Paul water baptized Crispus and others by the 1Cor. 12-17 passage).

As for Cornelius and his household, in Acts 11:17 Peter is relating the story in the way it progressed, and WHY he HAD to baptize them.

Foreasmuch THEN (past tense)....as God GAVE (past tense)...them the like gift.....what was I, that I COULD WITHSTAND (present/future tense).

You, and those like minded, are determined to deny that certain instances of baptism, noted in Acts, is water, if water is not specifically mentioned. If you were a truck driver, and I the dispatcher, my patience would be tested by your behavior: By your repeatedly requiring word for word directions to a place you had already been to several times.

When King Josiah read the ‘words of the book of the covenant’ to the people, the scriptures don’t go back and repeat it all. That’s because, by that point in reading the Bible, one knows where to find it in detail. The DETAILED instructions of the new birth are easily found in the NT, if one WANTS to find them.

[Zuriel]

**Did the remission of sins exist before we are baptised into it? Yes it did.**

It’s been available, but one has to obey the gospel. Are you sure that you are not resisting it?

[Zuriel]

Concerning Abraham:

**Genesis 15:6 Amplified Bible (AMP)
6 And he [Abram] believed in (trusted in, relied on, remained steadfast to) the Lord, and He counted it to him as righteousness (right standing with God).**

That testamony from God was made years after Abraham had (at God’s instructions) traveled at least 400 miles (the old fashioned way), built an altar at Bethel (it wasn’t just to look at), and done many other faithful things.

The Abraham example is great, when told in it’s fullness. But, that is the failure of ‘Ahimaaz’ messengers. Good men, but inspite of missing the entire message, they still feel qualified. (see 2Sam. 18:19-32.)

**We are commanded to Baptism and thus if we accept Jesus Christ in our heart we want to please him and follow his commands. We want everyone to see our faith and our acceptance of God through Jesus Christ or at least I did and others I have talked to did also. We are also commanded to help the widows, orphans, and the Jewish poor. All this is a result of being saved that the Book of James refers to as good works.**

That is true. Just make SURE that you are not overlooking Jesus Christ, and his apostles, COMPLETE teaching on water baptism.