Rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem?

The Deseret News ^ | May 3, 2014 | William Hamblin and Daniel Peterson

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>when did Jesus stop being a Jew?<<<

Most likely when he became Lord. I would guesstimate somewhere around the beginning of his creation; maybe before.

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>the way Jews perceive their “destiny” is irrelevant to the reality of their situation, which is the same as every other human being ( read: sinner )<<<

I agree.

>>>unless you believe Jesus is the Messiah, sent from the Father, YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SIN. ( John 8:22-30 )<<<

You excluded the context. Why did Jesus make that statement?

What about those who never met or heard of Jesus? Are you saying there are conditions attached to this commandment?

"These things I command you, that ye love one another." (John 17:17 KJV)

"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." (John 15:12 KJV)

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15 KJV)

Are you claiming that those who keep his commandments, out of the goodness within their hearts, will die in their sins if they never hear of Jesus before they die?

>>>Whether one accepts this or not doesn’t make it any less factual, just as if I don’t believe in gravity makes it any less factual.<<<

There is no doubt that Jesus is Lord and Creator. But he is also not vain. And why did you make that statement? Your opinions are hardly facts; and generally your opinion is all you write. If you would care to show us your reasoning by way of the scriptures, it would be helpful. Otherwise, you are merely expressing your opinion.

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

I reread my previous post to you (#82,) and I believe I came across as harsh. I didn’t intend it that way. When I debate, I like to dot every “i” and cross every “t.” Some of my most heated debates are with my friends whose interpretation of scripture is similar to mine.

Sorry,

Philip

[wafflehouse]

ok so your guesstimations are the basis for theological decisions?

[wafflehouse]

so many people misunderstand paul that its not really good to use in debates. Im sure you can agree that having Christians and Jews (even if they worship the same God), they do not qualify as 'one flock'. Paul himself was a jew and a Pharisee. so what does he mean in that verse?
here is one for you:

15And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>ok so your guesstimations are the basis for theological decisions?<<<

When you ask a question has no logical answer, a guesstimation is all you should expect.

[PhilipFreneau]

You got this part right:

"Paul himself was a jew and a Pharisee."

Paul was converted from a Christian-persecuting Pharisee to a devout Christian when Jesus spoke to him from heaven. From that day on, Paul worked for the Lord.

Paul's writings, like all inspired writings, were not his, but were given to him by the Holy Ghost.

Philip

[wafflehouse]

have you read the book of Acts?
maybe you can turn to the end part, where he is on trial (what was it, 5-6 times?)
he states repeatedly that he IS a jew (and a pharisee)
he is actually being accused of teaching against torah and he denies the charges. are you one of his accusers?

[wafflehouse]

When you ask a question has no logical answer

Jesus is STILL A JEW because he isnt dead.
your Messiah may come, but it wont be the same guy sitting on the right hand of the Father in the end

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>have you read the book of Acts? maybe you can turn to the end part, where he is on trial (what was it, 5-6 times?) he states repeatedly that he IS a jew (and a pharisee) he is actually being accused of teaching against torah and he denies the charges. <<<

So you don't believe these statements by Paul:

    "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." (Col 3:11 KJV)

    "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:28-29 KJV)

I will agree that Paul was, at one time, a Jew and a Pharisee. But if there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ, as Paul states, then how could Paul be a Jew (again) unless he fell away from Christ: unless he abandoned his gospel ministry?

>>>he is actually being accused of teaching against torah and he denies the charges. are you one of his accusers?<<<

I, like Paul, don't deny God's Word in the books of Moses, nor in any other book of the old and new covenants. But all this hair-splitting opinion proves nothing. Let's hear what Paul says about his FORMER status as a Jew and Pharisee:

    "Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ," (Phi 3:4-8 KJV)

Note that Paul considered his former status as a Jew and Pharisee as dung. LOL!

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Jesus is STILL A JEW because he isnt dead.<<<

Are you referring to the same Jesus who was alive before Abraham was born? The Jesus who spoke to Abraham?

    "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58 KJV)

If Jesus was alive before Abraham, how can he be a Jew? Abraham was not a Jew?

>>>your Messiah may come, but it wont be the same guy sitting on the right hand of the Father in the end<<<

Jesus is already sitting on the right hand of the Father in heaven, on the throne of David. This is something else about Jesus you may not be aware of: Jesus is the Father. Recall this statement Jesus made to Philip:

    "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" (John 14:9 KJV)

And how about this one:

    "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30 KJV)

Isaiah also said he was the Father:

    "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." (Isa 9:6 KJV)

Philip

[wafflehouse]

Paul was Jew. you are misinterpreting his scriptures.
what does this mean exactly?

"I ... don't deny God's Word in the books of Moses"

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Paul was Jew. you are misinterpreting his scriptures.<<<

Explain.

>>>what does this mean exactly?
"I ... don't deny God's Word in the books of Moses"<<<

It means I believe every word written in the books of Moses.

Philip