Posted on 12/23/2013 7:16:44 PM PST by Uri’el-2012
He who restrains must be take out of the way then the antichrist is revealed.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,…
>>Current governments are total evil now, especially the U.S. government, that has just cancelled the pensions of many war vets, and forbids all Christian references in the public places.<<
Well, there you have it!! Just like you say. Governments are restraining evil! Wow! You got it all figured out.
>> “Perhaps it would be better just to take scripture a stop all that carnal thinking” <<
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That is what I did. the carnal thinking that you posted was potentially confusing to many here. It appears You do not seem to like what the scriptures say, especially Yeshua’s words.
>> “Per you is the “last trump” when the antichrist sets himself up in the temple, after the battle of Armageddon, after the thousand year reign or some other time?” <<
No, that is all your fabrication.
Let’s stick with the time table of Revelation.
The last trump, as most here know, is the end of Satan’s Great Tribulation. The Abomination is set up 42 months before that, as Satan is cast out to the Earth. This is the mid point of the 70th week. The first half of the 70th week brings the total economic collapse of Earthly governments.
>> “It would be best if we all used the language from the New Testament...” <<
The prophets that foretold all of this did so in the language of Yehova, long before the NT was written.
The entire series of events is laid out in the Feasts that Yehova provided to educate his elect about these times.
The Fall Feasts in particular are the guide to the events that we will soon experience.
Purim, a feast remembering Haman’s attempt to exterminate all of Yehova’s chosen people, will mark the mid point of the 70th week, when Satan will be cast out of the Throne Room of Yehova, and the Abomination will declare himself to be God. This is the beginning of Satan’s Great Tribulation.
Forty two months later, at Yom Teruah (the feast of Trumpets) the first day of the seventh Biblical month, Tishri, known for millennia as the “day which no man knoweth but the Father” due to the fact that it is defined by the sighting of a new moon at the temple mount; with a mighty trump Yehova will come with his angels in the cloud to gather his elect. This marks the beginning of Yehova’s Wrath poured out on those that worshiped the Beast.
This will last for ten days, ending at Tishri 10, Yom Kippur, the Feast of Atonement, when the Marriage Supper of the Lamb occurs on the Sea of Fire and Glass.
At Tishri 15, Sukkot, (The Feast of Tabernacles) Yeshua, girded for battle, returns to Earth with his saints. This begins the great battle, as an Angel calls to the birds to come to dine on the flesh of the “Beast,” the men who ruled the Earth. After the battle Satan is bound for 1000 years.
All of your sarcasm (which I choose not to answer) aside, what is your objection to the language of Yehova, and his stated time table? We win.
He who “lets,” not he who restrains.
Oh really? Let’s take a look at the Greek.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now restrains (katechōn) will do so, until he be taken out of the way.
katechōn - Definition: (a) I hold fast, bind, arrest, (b) I take possession of, lay hold of, (c) I hold back, detain, restrain, (d) I hold a ship, keep its head. [http://biblehub.com/greek/2722.htm]
Looks like it’s “restrain” to me from those who do the Greek stuff. Of course that would be for those who hold that God kept His promise to preserve His word for us today.
What are you up to? Trying to start a flame war?
Everything I post you turn upside down, and it really looks silly. Injecting contrived foolishness conveys nothing of value.
You may need to get Daniel to rewrite that prophesy and don’t forget to tell him to include that extra ten day dilly in there this time so at least you have some scripture to back up what you claim. It’s woefully lacking in most all of your posts claiming to know more than all the scholars for that last 2000 years. And while your at it you may need to get all of the prophets to adjust what they prophesied so they all coincide.
You mean like you saying it’s not restrains but the Greek word says it is? You mean the foolishness of showing you that the Greek actually proves that it’s restrains and not “lets”? That kind of foolishness? Or do you mean the kind of foolishness where I use scripture and you don’t?
I agree. No one was ever saved by works, OT, NT and future. It has always been Grace.
Frankly the “he” has generated much debate. Since this is the only portion of scriptures addressing the subject I consider no doctrine can be derived from it. We can state theories all day but cannot be 100% certain. I am a futurist with regards to Revelation and unfulfilled OT prophecy. I also see a pre-trib translation of the church, fully understanding fellow brothers and sisters in Christ may disagree. That’s fine and I expect this based on disagreements on Israel future, and what wrath is defined by Paul and in Revelation 3. Good Christians can and will debate these things because there is some mystery.
We SHOULD all agree on what Jesus Christ and the apostles DID tell us clearly...watch be ready, be sober, continue our Airborne mission of the Great Commission. IMHO everything else is in God’s Hands. If the amil and post trib rapture brothers and sisters are right then hopefully we pretrib types stocked up on some ammo:) If the pre trib crowd is right then everyone will have a pleasant and blessed surprise. Watch and be ready is our current mission and preach the Gospel.
I will admit and be honest that CB and I agree on much when it comes to eschatology. We do differ on a few things and probably the biggest one is a subject of the previous post. I believe the Gospel preached during the trib is the same one we preach today-—Grace. To be more precise the same Gospel Jesus Christ commanded in Luke 24.
Eschatology is great to study but it should never be a source of division among the Church. I think we all agree Christ will come AGAIN physically and visibly. Amil, pre-trib, post trib and even partial prederists.
I don’t think we disagree on that at all. Israel will be going back to the old temple sacrifice but that is not what is going to save them. Keep in mind that the Nation of Israel is still an apostate nation and will be until the end other than the “elect” 12,000 from each tribe who have accepted Christ as savior. Don’t confuse the remnant believers with the NATION of Israel as a whole.
There will also be those who become believers after the rapture who are referred to as tribulation saints but they will be killed for their belief.
I hope that clarifies my point a little.
>> “You may need to get Daniel to rewrite that prophesy and don’t forget to tell him to include that extra ten day dilly in there this time so at least you have some scripture to back up what you claim” <<
.
LOL! not Daniel, Torah. (you know, that irrelevant stuff you never read)
There are ten days between Yom Teruah and Yom Kippur!
The feasts have spelled it all out from Mt. Sinai.
Understand the feasts = Wise Virgin
Don’t understand = Foolish Virgin
.
Parables rock!
Finger in the wind sucks.
>> “Well, there you have it!! Just like you say. Governments are restraining evil!” <<
.
For the record, that is the exact opposite of what I stated. I said the governments are the evil, and they are collapsing under the weight of their evil economic policies, which is what allows the Abomination to rise in their vacuum.
He will perform his abomination at Purim, just as Haman did.
Last example. In post 301 you wrote
QUOTE: "He who restrains must be take out of the way then the antichrist is revealed.", which is a paraphrase of 2 Thess 2:7-8. We completely agree on the plain meaning of this passage. (celebrate the little things, eh?)
However, at this point, we diverge. The scripture say, in 1 Thess 2:1-3:
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
The simple reading of this passage causes the reader to conclude the following:
1. These 3 verses concern the coming of the Lord, and our gathering to him
2. It is written to the Brothers and Sisters
3. 1 Thess 1.1 confirms it is written to "To the church of the Thessalonians"
4. Thus, the brothers and sisters are the Church at Thessalonica
5. Most christians believe any NT passage written to a single church is applicable to all churches, for we are the universal body of Christ
6. Verse 2 equate Jesus' coming with the "Day of the Lord"
7. Verse 3 plainly states "...that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed"
I conclude this is referring to the rapture of the saints based on the plain reading of the passage. Thus, a precondition of the rapture is the revelation of the main of lawlessness. Therefors, the rapture is not imminent.
You conclude that is CANNOT be the church, because dispensational pre-trib theory asserts that the church in long gone before the antichrist is revealed.
This is the simplest statement of our differences. I choose the plain reading of scripture, you choose a clarification based on other premises.
We both must deal with Pauls admonition in verse 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way....
This one?
Luke 24:
[44] And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
[45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
[46] And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
[47] And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
[48] And ye are witnesses of these things.
>> “Thus, a precondition of the rapture is the revelation of the man of lawlessness. Therefore, the rapture is not imminent.” <<
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One of the most important messages for our time!
Without it hearts may fail, and faith wax cold.
I'm with you. I think one of the reasons for the falling away is that when the Beast is revealed, and people who have been taught the pre-trib rapture from birth realize they are still here, they will abandon the faith in droves, throwing the (Gospel) baby out with the (pre-trib) bathwater.
It does, thanks.
I will say one more thing, and it is “free chicken” and you can ignore or rebuke me....Gents please cease fire on each other. In some shape or fashion we all have our differences but we are all focused on Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMashiach) and His second coming in Glory. I truly enjoy reading both you gentlemen’s posts and think it can be done without brining up past disputes.
Thanks for hearing me out.
And as someone said previously...We win!
If people actually know the pre-trib rapture didn't happen then it follows that they recognize they are in the tribulation.One of the things that clue them in is the fact that the anti-christ has been revealed,7 yr treaty etc etc.They will then know this is all true and happening before their very eyes.They can count the days till he walks into the temple,they can count the days right down to the day Jesus arrives.They literally will be able to tell people they know what is going to happen and it will happen exactly on those days.It makes no sense whatever to think that the effect this will have is to make people lose faith.The exact opposite is what one would expect.
Jim may I ask which Bible version you used in the previous post? Jumping in late...from your posts I gather you see the translation of the church at mid trib?
ES from your comments you see a post trib translation of the church?
Yes.
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