Posted on 11/08/2013 5:57:07 PM PST by ebb tide
If an annulment is not possible then the fact is that the original marriage continues after the civil divorce. Do we follow the words of our Lord or not?
It was the 1960’s and she wasn't offered an annulment, but after divorced, as I have said, received counseling and forgiveness.
Forgiveness yes, but without an annulment her marriage still exists. If any priest told her that a civil divorce actually dissolved the marriage and that after absolution she was free to marry then he lied to her. She would still be married to her husband and bound to remain chaste in her marriage.
The gospel has many crosses that we must bear, involuntary celibacy being one of them. It is only with true faith that we can follow Jesus Christ. While we should always have compassion on those who through weakness fall into sin, we can never declare what is sinful to be good. Nor can we cease to call sinners away from their sins.
Nor did I ever imply that. If someone divorces then they can always seek forgiveness for whatever culpability they had that caused the divorce. They can also receive forgiveness for any acts of adultery they may have committed after a civil divorce against what is still a valid marriage. This seems to be the point that you will not acknowledge. A civil divorce does not dissolve a valid marriage. The teaching of Jesus Christ on divorce and remarriage was something new and contrary to the Mosaic law. The importance of this is emphasized by the fact that it is included in all three of the synoptic gospels, being given twice in Matthew. If we are to be true followers of Jesus Christ we cannot just pretend that he said what he did regarding divorce and remarriage.
I am not of the belief that many good people I know are condemned to hell over a divorce.
You keep trying to put this in terms of divorce. The true question is that of adultery while bound by a still valid marriage.
I am but a layperson but no Priest I have ever known would agree with you. I am not divorced, nor are 99% of my family. Do you think every Protestant and Jew is going to hell for committing Adultery if divorced?
"I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.” [Matthew 19:9]
Who would claim that someone should be bound by a marriage that in reality does not, and never did, exist? An annulment is just the answer to the question: Is this a true marriage?
… and the only way a person can not be labeled an Adulterer for the rest of their lives if they are divorced.
Divorce does not make a person an adulterer, adultery does. If a person remains unmarried after a divorce and does not engage in sexual activity there is no adultery.
Do you think every Protestant and Jew is going to hell for committing Adultery if divorced?
I will leave all judgments to God. This is a nice trick of yours in trying to avoid the issue of our Lord's teaching while making an emotional appeal. Do you believe what our Lord said when he said that if any divorces and marries again that he is committing adultery? This is the only question.
Forgiveness, for any sin, must always be accompanied by the resolution to sin no more. Again, it is not the fact that a person is divorced is the sin, it is having sexual relations with someone other than your spouse that is the sin of adultery. No sexual relations, no sin. Are we bound by the teaching of Jesus Christ or not?
“Unless the marriage is unlawful” does not exist in Matthew19:9!
1 When Jesus finished these words, he left Galilee and went to the district of Judea across the Jordan. 2 Great crowds followed him, and he cured them there. 3 Some Pharisees approached him, and tested him, saying, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?” 4 He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.” 7 They said to him, “Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss [her]?” 8 He said to them, “Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.”
Are you saying if a woman is divorced by her husband she isn’t allowed Communion anymore? Is this what you are saying? What about a couple who converts to Catholicism and they are both divorced and remarried to each other? Are you going to tell them, “Sure you can join our church but we won’t let you take Communion”, and deny them the very sacrament Catholics claim is essential to salvation? Hey...if that’s the case, send them to the nearest Evangelical church we and God accept all sinners who want to be saved by grace!
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace. (I Corinthians 7:14-15)
No, what you say is not the only question. There is no “trick”. You take a firm stand on Biblical teaching when it suits you, but when asked another direct question, you “leave all judgments to God”. But you know perfectly well Adultery is a mortal sin and have no problem damning those that are divorced and remarried.
What I believe is that as a God of Love and Mercy, God will judge us all as individuals and the fact that a person doesn’t have an annulment in their filing cabinet isn’t going to be the deciding factor. Of course Jesus
Christ taught us that divorce is wrong, it comes with a lot of pain, breaks up the most desired family unit and is never good for society as a whole.
Please read my posts. The fact that someone is divorced is not a sin. The sin is if someone who is in a valid marriage has sexual relations with someone other than his spouse. This is adultery and this can always be forgiven provided that there is the resolution to sin no more. Civil divorce has no more reality other than property rights, the marriage still exists.
What about a couple who converts to Catholicism and they are both divorced and remarried to each other? Are you going to tell them, “Sure you can join our church but we won’t let you take Communion”, and deny them the very sacrament Catholics claim is essential to salvation?
Again trying to use an emotional appeal to avoid the reality of our Lord's teaching. The question is whether there is a valid marriage that still perdures despite a civil divorce. If it does then the spouses are bound by this. If you object to this your objection is not with me and not with the Catholic Church but with Jesus Christ.
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her when she is put away committeth adultery. (English Revised)
And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery. (Douay-Rheims)
And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery: and whoever marries her which is put away does commit adultery. (American KJV)
And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.” (English Standard Version)
I have never once damned the divorced and remarried. Even here, as with all sins and all sinners, I leave the judgment to God. But this does not allow us to ignore the reality that divorce does not dissolve a marriage and that the spouse are bound by it.
Catholic.org as well as other translations do not use that wording.
Nope...not an “emotional appeal” at all, just a rational question that probably happens frequently these days. Don’t tell me there isn’t some precedent for something like this? A couple, both already divorced and remarried to each other - let’s throw in a couple of kids, to make the argument realistic - decides they want the family to join the Catholic Church. What do you tell them, “Sorry, you don’t meet our qualifications and we won’t let you take Communion.”? “We’ll take the kids, but you two aren’t allowed.”?
A grave (mortal) sin condemns a person and you know that perfectly well. So why so shy on what you believe is the truth now?
You need to brush up on your catechism. Grave matter is only one of the criteria for mortal sin. The others are sufficient reflection and the full consent of the will. This is why the Catholic Church has always taught that we can judge the sin but not the sinner.
Not our qualifications but those of Jesus Christ.
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