HOMILY OF HOLY FATHER FRANCIS - "Arena" sports camp, Salina Quarter

The Vatican ^ | 7-8-2013 | The Pope

[Zionist Conspirator]

Kinda funny considering the speaker doesn’t believe that Adam or Cain ever existed.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Oh for the love of God, who cares what someone’s screen name is?

As for the Pope’s comments, I refuse to rationalize or defend them.

It's too bad Protestants can't simply criticize the Pope's homily without invoking sola scriptura. It's also too bad (and very telling) that "conservative" Catholics can't defend their religion without defending post-Vatican II liberalism. The defense of "salvation" through other religions would not have been considered a Catholic position at one time; now it appears it is the Catholic position.

[piusv]

I hear you.

I still am not sure that salvation through other religions is official Catholic teaching now, but when popes say things like what was said here, then at the very least, the perception is that it is official teaching.

As an orthodox Catholic, I find myself in a real pickle these days and I am getting angrier and angrier with our so-called leadership.

[BlatherNaut]

"l still am not sure that salvation through other religions is official Catholic teaching now, but when popes say things like what was said here, then at the very least, the perception is that it is official teaching."

__________

"...Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.

Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned.

The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).

Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics...."

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“Yes, anyone who is saved is saved through Christ’s redemptive death on the Cross, but it doesn’t logically follow that only those with an explicit faith in Christ will be saved.”

---

Not only is this illogical, it is quite blasphemous. In fact, I doubt that you are even a Christian as a result of such opinions. If you trust in your righteousness for salvation, I assure you that when you die, you will wake up in hell fire exactly because your righteousness were accounted as nothing more than filthy rags in the sight of God. What you offer, essentially, is a form of universalism based upon personal merits of righteousness to receive an atonement outside of faith in Jesus Christ. One wonders what the point of evangelism is, and for what reason Paul received the vision of the Gentiles crying out for help, if they could have merited heaven through their fastings and sacrifices to heathen gods.

First of all, there is no one righteous, all have fallen short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23); even our righteousness, in the sight of God, is but filthy rags, and we are all unclean in His sight (Isa 64:6). There is not a just man upon Earth who does good (Ecc 7:20). Nor are even the Saints in heaven accounted perfect, for he “putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in His sight” (Job 15:15). And the only one who can be called good, is God Himself (Mark 10:18).

If damnation is justice, may not mercy choose its own?

Secondly, the only thing that is said of those were ignorant of the God of Israel is that they had no excuse (Rom 1:20). Is God obligated to save them who are not His? Christ Himself prays not for the every individual in the world, but for those given to Him out of the world who would believe in Him (John 17:9). It is written that He will save HIS people, but it does not say that He will save those who are not His sheep (Matt 1:21, John 10:26). Furthermore, it is declared explicitly that whosoever does not believe is condemned already (John 3:18), and that all those whom the Father gives to the Son, will come to the Son (John 6:37).

If you are not happy with what the scripture teaches on this, you should find another religion. Maybe go to the Unitarians, or the Baha’i.

[floralamiss]

That is so well-put. Thank you, JPX2011.

[johngrace]

Tongue twisting nonsense. Stop bearing False Witness.

[johngrace]

Hysterical!!! Your Funny!! I love it. I had a family member who loved those noodles. So extra funny to me. Thanks!!

[johngrace]

"First of all, there is no one righteous, all have fallen short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23); even our righteousness, in the sight of God, is but filthy rags, and we are all unclean in His sight (Isa 64:6). There is not a just man upon Earth who does good (Ecc 7:20). Nor are even the Saints in heaven accounted perfect, for he “putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in His sight” (Job 15:15). And the only one who can be called good, is God Himself (Mark 10:18)"

_________________________________________________________________________ ++++ So this is an Absolute. Totally.

Well lets say "Luke" I am Your "Father."

This is what the Famous Luke Wrote from The Holy Spirit. Hmmmm.......

Luke 5

5 In the days of King Herod of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly order of Abijah. His wife was a descendant of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 BOTH of THEM were RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD , LIVING BLAMELESSLY ACCCORDING to ALL the COMMANDMENTS and REGULATIONS of THE LORD. 7 But they had no children, because Elizabeth was barren, and both were getting on in years.

Let's make sure to post the exact statement of scripture again.

LUKE 1:6 BOTH of THEM were RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD , LIVING BLAMELESSLY ACCCORDING to ALL the COMMANDMENTS and REGULATIONS of THE LORD.

BLAMELESSLY? Strong words if you ask me.

Please Explain? Thank you "Mr Absolute?"

[johngrace]

Thank you.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“Please Explain? Thank you “Mr Absolute?””

---

Simple, our righteousness, in the sight of God, is still filthy rags. (Isaiah 64:6)

So you can certainly glory with your righteousness, but not before God.

How come you don’t explain this?:

Luk_18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

What you offer, essentially, is a form of universalism based upon personal merits of righteousness

All personal merit derives from Christ's merits, obviously, and all good works are by the grace of God. Otherwise, Satan's kingdom would be divided against itself.

Anyone who does good works for their own sake, i.e., God's sake, is doing them via grace, either actual or sanctifying, whether they understand that, or not.

In the Catholic Bible, we learn that "faith without works is dead." "Even the demons believe, and shudder." Faith alone will not bring anyone to salvation.

Faith and works are two sides of the same coin, and inseparable. Both are necessary for salvation.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

It is written that He will save HIS people, but it does not say that He will save those who are not His sheep (Matt 1:21, John 10:26). Furthermore, it is declared explicitly that whosoever does not believe is condemned already (John 3:18), and that all those whom the Father gives to the Son, will come to the Son (John 6:37).

This boils down to the fact that God knows who will be saved and who won't. We don't have this knowledge on this side of heaven.

_______________________________________

Let me ask you a question.

The Bible is the sole rule of faith, correct? And the Bible teaches your doctrine regarding salvation. In fact, the reading of the Bible is the only sure way that anyone can learn your doctrine regarding salvation, correct?

As a matter of fact, there have been many people, even Christians, who have lived and died without ever seeing a Bible. Of course, there are many people today who will live and die without encountering a Bible. They have little to no knowledge of who Jesus is.

Are they all damned, regardless of how they have lived their lives?

If so, is this consistent with a God who is Justice Itself?

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“Faith and works are two sides of the same coin, and inseparable. Both are necessary for salvation.”

---

But yet, you have separated them, in suggesting that a Muslim can get into heaven without faith.

[johngrace]

LUKE 1:6 BOTH of THEM were RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD , LIVING BLAMELESSLY ACCCORDING to ALL the COMMANDMENTS and REGULATIONS of THE LORD.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“Are they all damned, regardless of how they have lived their lives?”

---

Certainly. Though they are not damned “regardless of how they lived their lives,” they are damned because of how they have lived their lives. Just because you disagree with the scripture and assert that they DO have an excuse after all, doesn’t mean that your philosophical problem can be raised as a legitimate reply to God.

Rom 9:20-21 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

You’re just repeating yourself. Unless the scripture contradicts itself, there “righteousness” includes frequently repenting and sacrificing for their many SINS, and being flawed human beings, as we all are, who cannot see the light of heaven without the grace of God overlooking and washing clean, instead of destroying them as He could do if He did not decide to have mercy. Thus Jesus Christ is not a liar when He says “no one is good, except God,” and the scripture does not like when it declares the whole lot of human kind guilty before God.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

But yet, you have separated them, in suggesting that a Muslim can get into heaven without faith.

Explicit faith. A non-Christian can have implicit faith.

It's simply impossible for someone who knows nothing of Christ to have explicit faith in Him. But anyone who serves Truth (i.e., Chr ist) and Goodness (i.e., God), has implicit faith in Christ.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“lie” not “like.” Typo.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“Explicit faith. A non-Christian can have implicit faith.”

---

No such distinction or idea exists in the entirety of scripture, and is actively condemned instead.

Rom_10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.