Posted on 06/25/2013 3:08:30 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
“Humans are spiritual beings and thereby possess capabilities that the time and space bound universe we see, composed of matter and energy, doesn’t. Things that are true of a rock or a tree are not true of a soul.”
Human beings are, by nature, spiritually dead beings and thereby possess the capabilities to do evil and serve the will of their flesh and corrupt minds.
Eph 2:1-2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Col_2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Therefore, a rock and a tree is infinitely more worthy of life and salvation than they.
Human souls are driven by the spirit they catch. If that’s Satan, it turns them into hellish creatures that can only be damned. If that’s God, it saves and heals them of what sin did to them. There is NO “catch no spirit” option for humans... none.
Too many theologians split hairs about the “catching” process. I remain a Calminian in my views backed by both biblical doctrine and actual spiritual experience being saved and growing in the Lord.
P.S. I use “catch” as an illustration in modern terms for what the Bible calls “believe.”
“Human souls are driven by the spirit they catch. If that’s Satan, it turns them into hellish creatures that can only be damned. If that’s God, it saves and heals them of what sin did to them. There is NO “catch no spirit” option for humans... none.”
“Catch” a spirit? Not only is this a denial of original sin, man’s inherent wickedness, it even sounds silly. Something similar to Scientologists catching Thetans.
I don’t doubt your salvation, but your reasoning is not scriptural.
No. I do not deny original sin; I affirm it strongly. Original sin was a concurrence of human soul believing (catching) Satan.
Note too that the scripture says that God created man upright. That doesn’t mean just Adam and Eve. Then we have what we call the fall.
The reason Scientologists seem so credible is that they have counterfeited something that God actually did set up. Biblically it is called “believing.”
“Original sin was a concurrence of human soul believing (catching) Satan.”
Human sin is the result of Adam’s spiritual death in the garden as a result of his disobedience from God.
Gen_2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
No one believes in Satan or sin and therefore becomes infected with the Satan thetan and becomes a sinner. They are sinners of themselves already, from birth, though they are indeed under the power of the god of this world.
Psa_51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
So when the Lord said there would be a sound with an uncertain origin, and that it would happen to EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit, He really didn’t mean EVERY ONE.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
“So when the Lord said there would be a sound with an uncertain origin, and that it would happen to EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit, He really didn’t mean EVERY ONE.”
From Gill’s commentary on that particular phrase:
“as the wind, though its sound is heard, and its force felt, it cannot be seen; nor is it known certainly, from whence it comes, and where are the treasures of it; from whence it begins, and where it ends; so is the grace of the Spirit of God in regeneration to a natural man; it is imperceptible, indiscernible, and unaccountable by him, 1Co_2:14.”
You made a few assumptions based on one verse, which is contradicted by the testimony of the scriptures. Your first assumption is that this isn’t a comparison, but is rather a literal explanation of what we should expect believers to do. It says “so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” Not ‘everyone born of the spirit will behave like the wind, making peeping noises and being mysterious.” Your second assumption is that it is man being spoken of, and not the Holy Spirit Himself being spoken of, as Gill reads it. You then assume that the “sound” in question is glossolalia, and not, perhaps, the God given testimony that Jesus is the Christ, which could just as easily fall under your logic.
I do agree with you that God grants the faith. He opened Lydia's heart. That one example is sufficient.
However, the offer is to all, and the atonement is for all. It is only those who respond who are blessed with the benefits of the atonement.
First, even you, I suspect, believe that the depraved, unregenerate human has free will. Correct? You would say that they do but that their depravity will have them always choosing evil instead of God.
However, can they resist God? Stephen seems to think so. "You always resist the Holy Spirit." is what he said to them, the Apostle Paul included, WHO WAS AT THAT MOMENT HOLDING THE GARMENTS OF THOSE THROWING STONES. (Acts 7: 51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52 Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? )
Paul was brought into the fold by Jesus Himself,
Acts 9: 1 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" 5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6 "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." 7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything. 10 In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!" "Yes, Lord," he answered. 11 The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight." 13 "Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name." 15 But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name." 17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord--Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here--has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized,
So, Stephen was not exactly correct in saying "always". When Jesus intervened, Paul received his "sight". And, it is possible that others in that stoning group that day were also eventually saved. We don't know. Paul is the only one mentioned.
Acts 26 adds some information (as does Acts 22):
15 "Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?' " 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 16 'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' 19 "So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. 20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
So, the sanctification follows the faith. And it appears that the repentence precedes or is at the same time as the "turning to God." Paul says that God commands ALL to repent.
Acts 17:24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' 29 "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone--an image made by man's design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."Acts 20: 20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. 21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.
As Hebrews says: "1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment."
Peter affirms this by saying that God wants ALL to come to repentance.
And in the order of salvation, repentance is separate from faith and apparently precedes it because Pauls says in 2 Co 7:10 "10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation."
This is consistent with Paul's teaching:
Acts 19:4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus."Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.
So, repentance precedes faith, and repentance is Godly sorrow for violations of God's instruction.
And God's instructions are known to all: Romans 2: 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
On the Free Will v Predestination debate, I usually only contribute one point as follows:
Scriptures contain both Prophecy (predestination) and Commandments (free will) - therefore, both are true.
The Law of the Excluded Middle (either/or) does not apply to the Creator of that logic.
John 1:11-13 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Amen, brother. May the grace of God continue to fill you as you take His message of love and redemption to a world in dire need of Him.
“However, can they resist God? Stephen seems to think so. “You always resist the Holy Spirit.” is what he said to them, the Apostle Paul included,”
They can certainly “resist” the Holy Spirit in the person of Stephen, as it was with the Spirit that He spoke (Acts 6:8-9), and men of reprobate minds have always resisted the truth (2 Ti 3:8). And they can resist the Holy Spirit, in the testimony of the Prophets and the Holy Scriptures. But it does not follow that they can resist the Holy Spirit working directly on their heart so that they believe, ‘For who hath resisted His will?” (Rom 9:19), and again, “[we] being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will” (Eph 1:11), and again “and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48).
The Jews in John 6, just as an example, certainly did not “resist” the effectual operation of the Holy Spirit. It simply wasn’t given to them to believe at all, and that is why they did not believe.
Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
There is no contradiction in the plan of God, to where He teaches two different and opposing views of who is saving who. The defect is purely in the reasoning of men.
Calvinists keep using this verse like it has some special meaning.
Don't calvinists realize that there is no restriction on who has been given to Jesus by the Father?
Jesus Himself taught that man must make the decision himself and begin the approach? God doesn't go pluck people out for salvation until that person makes his own decision.
“Calvinists keep using this verse like it has some special meaning.”
Presumably all scripture has meaning.
“Don’t calvinists realize that there is no restriction on who has been given to Jesus by the Father?”
So why is that verse an explanation for why the Jews did not believe?
Yes.
Yes, it does.
You notice, though, that I included the word "special."
You claim it's an explanation, yet ignore the verses that say God desires all men to be saved, and that saving grace has appeared to all men. Those verses pretty much eliminate any presumption that some are created specifically to go to hell. You also ignore Jesus' own teaching that dead men can make decisions to come to the Father, and that Father waiting for the person to make that decision on his own.
My personal explanation of the John 6 passage is that since Salvation is a spiritual activity, carnal man cannot comprehend it. However since Grace has appeared to all men, we can now have the faith that He will save us. God has imparted the gift of spiritual discernment to those who desire it.
The key here, though, is "those who desire it." Christianity is a relationship where one must believe before one can understand. Not the other way around. Faith comes from hearing.
“My personal explanation of the John 6 passage is that since Salvation is a spiritual activity, carnal man cannot comprehend it. However since Grace has appeared to all men, we can now have the faith that He will save us.”
This personal explanation has no basis in that chapter. Since, if all men are “given’ to God, as you say, then the entire world would be saved.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
And also in this chapter:
Joh 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Furthermore, there’s no way you can get from that verse, through any analysis of the words or context, that God isn’t intimately involved in making a carnal man a spiritual man. It does not say that God gave it to them all the same and that they simply resisted it because they were too carnal. It says that they believe not... therefore I said unto you, no man can come unto me except if it is given by my Father.
There is no piece of scripture that says effectual grace is offered to all mankind. Mankind might receive common grace, for their health, their lives, their everyday purposes; God might reason with mankind and ask them to turn. But at the end of the day, God chooses to snatch some of these rebellious people from out of the fire, and not all.
Rom 9:11-16 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) (12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. (13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. (15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
You're right--I take my view from using Scripture to interpret Scripture.
Since other passages elsewhere indicate a Grace that has bee imparted to all men, I must take that into account when reading this passage.
Since, if all men are “given’ to God, as you say, then the entire world would be saved.
Again--no. The story of the Prodigal Son refutes that notion.
Titus 2:11 says "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (emphasis mine)
It seems that Scripture disagrees with that statement.
Furthermore, there’s no way you can get from that verse, through any analysis of the words or context, that God isn’t intimately involved in making a carnal man a spiritual man.
I agree. I never said God isn't involved in the conversion from carnal to spiritual. He provided the Grace, without which, none would be saved.
But at the end of the day, God chooses to snatch some of these rebellious people from out of the fire, and not all.
This statement is the heart of the cult that is calvinism. It makes God to be arbitrary, ruthless, and cruel--without any justice or mercy to those He created for the sole purpose of throwing them into Hell. This is why I oppose calvinism. God is the epitome of justice and mercy. He is consistent, and offers the same chance at Salvation to all men.
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