Posted on 05/19/2013 4:54:01 AM PDT by NYer
Since God exists and loves us no matter what, why the need to prove it to someone? God knows what is in one’s heart, right?
I strongly commend another of Wikers books....”Moral Darwinism, How We Became Hedonists”. I began about 1 week ago re-reading this work. It is one of the best books on the history of evolution I have ever read.
re: “Lastly, freewill assumes one can choose perfect good. My bible says that mankind was born into sin and is a slave to it until set free by Christ. I’ll keep my soteriology.”
Then, my question to you is, how do you know you are one of God’s elect? Is it possible for someone to think they are saved, but are not? Matthew 7:21?
The heart is deceptive, so are emotions - how do you KNOW that you really accepted Christ? Because you said some words of belief??
Why is it, that proof of ones belief is even considered to be necessary?=================
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
..........[Stephen Roberts]
Yes
Anyone can say they believe, but how does one truly believe something today, that was unbelievable to them yesterday?
Yes, I believe the Bible teaches that all mankind is born with a sin nature, a bent toward sinning - but, if it is impossible for someone to respond to God’s love unless they are given a special call, then God chooses some for salvation and chooses some for Hell. I just cannot believe that God predestines people to Hell. I also do not see how God is not responsible for evil if everything that happens, even our choosing to sin, is preordained by God. That is not the God of the Bible.
I know that there is, somehow, involved in salvation, God’s sovereign work taking place, but I also believe we have the ability to respond to God’s grace. Without that ability to respond to that grace we cannot be saved. I believe God gives that ability to everyone. Some believe, some reject, and all are held responsible for their choices. I do not believe that God fixes it so certain people cannot respond. That is not the God of the Bible.
We cannot achieve salvation by our own merit. God alone provides that finished work of salvation, but God gives us the choice. How many times in Scripture does God tell us to choose? To choose to obey. Jesus said, “Whosoever will may come”.
The Apostle Paul argues in Romans 1 that no one has an excuse not to know that God exists, because God’s work in creation is clearly seen. How can people be without excuse if they have no ability to comprehend God’s acts?
I have many friends who are Calvinistic in their view point and I know they love the Lord. I just do not believe that we are robots who just follow some pre-programmed map. We just agree not to argue about it.
“It was the evidence itself that led me to this conclusion.”
Exactly.
And I’d like to say something here that might be considered off topic, but it’s a thought I’ve had before and it’s occurring to me again now.
It involves paganism I suppose, rather than religion, but perhaps some will see the relevance (if there is any!)
Isn’t it interesting how pagans would want to get a lock of a person’s hair, or some other small body remnant in order to cast a spell on that person. For how many centuries was this considered just “superstition” by more educated (for want of a better word) people.
And yet, and yet, weren’t those old witch doctors exactly right? Now that we know (by watching CSI if nothing else) that your entire individual physical profile is present even in a lock of hair?
I thought of this a while ago and I still find it pretty mind boggling.
It's something inside you...Bible says it's spirit...Something is planted in your inner being and you just know...
Of course there's 'head' belief which may change depending on the direction the wind blows...
Mr. Flew is dead.
So people cannot really just decide to believe something?
No, I believe because God has given me the “gifts” of faith and repentance. It has nothing to do with me.
What is in your heart is not static. Man who is aware of God’s existence will be free to act in the knowledge of the purpose of his life, and a man who is not aware of it cannot be free.
This premise is not accurate. It is possible for one to respond to God's love, first hesitantly or instinctively, and then gradually growing in faith and knowledge. Divine predestination occurs outside of human linear time and therefore takes into account the free-will response of faith. "when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son" (Romans 5:10)
So God does not choose anyone for hell: "[God] will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4).
I have many friends who are Calvinistic in their view point
Then witness to them. It is a severe error.
re: “So God does not choose anyone for hell: “[God] will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4).”
I completely concur with your assessment of the passage you quote above. I also agree with your view that Calvinists are in error, but woe to any who try to witness to them about that.
re: “No, I believe because God has given me the “gifts” of faith and repentance. It has nothing to do with me.”
But what guarantee do you have that you are really exercising the “gifts” of real faith and repentance? You don’t know because according to Calvinism, it is God who decides who is saved and who isn’t, even though you may “think” you are, you may be mistaken.
People can believe they believe, but are not one of the elect. How do you know that you are one of the elect? Just because you think you believe in God or in Christ? It has nothing to do with you - it is all God’s sovereign choice, right? Maybe you just think you believe, but are deluded. You have no assurance that you are one of the Elect because the decision is outside of anything you think, feel, or believe. It is all God’s sovereign choice and you have no access to that information according to the Calvinist view.
You may think you’ve been given the gift of faith from God, but since all of that is outside of anything you do or think or “think” you believe, you have no assurance that that means you are one of the Elect.
I do not understand what that means.
Why, this is what the Holy Scripture is for. While they beat their chests a lot how their views derive from the Holy Scripture, a closer examination shows them to be a counterscriptural hoax. They pick verses with "predestination" in it as if the word in scripture has the same meaning they inserted to it.
I commented that the syllogism is false because the content of your heart depends on the knowledge you have. Knowledge is good, therefore proving things is good. This is why people want to not simply make up their mind internally about God and sit with it, but rather discuss it and thus gain objective knowledge and be better men.
How do you know that the contents of one’s heart depends on the knowledge one has? That’s quite an assumption.
Why wouldn’t God know what is in one’s heart, even if that person did not know God? Isn’t that limiting God’s ability to know something, making man’s knowledge a prerequisite for God’s ability to know what is in a man’s heart?
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