Why Scripture and the Facts of History Compel Me to Remain a Committed Evangelical Protestant

Christian Resources ^ | William Webster

[Natural Law]

"Don’t like scripture that refutes what you say?"

The teachings of the Catholic Church are in complete harmony with Scripture.

[metmom]

Yeah, and being as one to them means becoming Catholic and following it lockstep.

No room for the Holy Spirit. The *church* tells you everything you need to know and even interprets it for you.

[pax_et_bonum]

If I understand this correctly, you’re telling me that I tell people what they want to hear and call it ‘love’ and that I cry ‘hate’.

If this is so, you are incorrectly quoting me.

I’ve had enough. Leave me alone.

[Former Fetus]

We have one advantage. We are not Catholic, Baptists... because that’s what our parents were, because that’s the way we were brought up... Each one of us has made a conscious decision about how we are going to follow Christ. We’ve done all the thinking, praying... now we are really standing on the Rock! I know it wasn’t easy for me, I had to make sure I was not risking my eternal salvation... And it caused problems with the rest of my family. But I know in my heart I made the right decision, I know my salvation is assured, and I can really tell that Jesus is with me no matter the circumstances.

[Natural Law]

"The god of Catholicism, according to some of her members, is apparently too small to reach out to save souls outside of the walls of the Catholic Church."

Please provide evidence of what is contrary to the Catechism.

CCC - 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

Somehow I thought you would be more honest about this.

[CynicalBear]

>> The teachings of the Catholic Church are in complete harmony with Scripture.<<

Then show scripture teaching of the assumption of Mary.

[metmom]

If I understand this correctly, you’re telling me that I tell people what they want to hear and call it ‘love’ and that I cry ‘hate’.

Actually, that is not correct.

Courtesy pinging CB because I'm mentioning him....

In post 209, you strongly implied that CB was not acting in a loving way.

That does seem to be a common accusation whenever a Catholic is told something that goes against Catholicism, or that they don't want to hear.

So, specifically, just what is it that CB said that is not perceived as being loving?

[boatbums]

Very true. It's like Paul says in I Corinthians 13:11, "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me." Part of maturity is having the conviction of our beliefs. Little kids just believe whatever they are told (most of them anyway - I always had my doubts about Santa Claus). Many people in different faith traditions are born into it and, sadly, many don't ever take it any further than that. They never delve into the depths of WHY they believe what they do - some just continue to attend services because it is expected of them but there is no genuine faith connection to the Creator God.

Just as you, I have a deep conviction that I now know THE truth, because it is in Jesus Christ who I believe and not some religion. I think it is very sad that some people place more importance on where one goes "to" church than in being "the" church. They mistakenly think that when Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against his church, it meant a physical organization rather than the spiritual temple we are part of. Looking back these 2000 years of history, it is plain to see that institutional churches ALL have been prevailed against in some way. Yet, we know Jesus was not mistaken. The ONLY way that his words are true is by recognizing that his church could not have been the man-made organizations that call themselves the church. No, it can only mean THE church, Jesus' body, that HE preserves from all evil and who WILL be with him in heaven for eternity. I thank God every day that he loved me and saved me!

[pax_et_bonum]

Read his posts if you like.

I’m trying to be nice but I am perfectly serious when I say to leave me alone.

[CynicalBear]

You made the accusation and I think it’s rather rude to now try to avoid the issue.

[Religion Moderator]

Do NOT bring arguments from one thread to another.

[roamer_1]

Ball is in your court Jesus did teach against the Torah and did change Sabbath practices.

No He didn't. Not one of your proofs stands against the Torah. They certainly stand against the traditions of the Pharisees (the comparative of the Roman church in that day), but you will have a very hard time trying to make these things against Torah... Though you are welcome to try:

Yeah seems like he did make a slight change in the sabbath laws.

Show me in the law of Moses what was broken.

[Religion Moderator]

Do not accuse another Freeper of hatred, it is mind reading, i.e. "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[boatbums]

Somehow I thought YOU would be more honest than this! If you take a moment and go back to the post that I replied to as well as many others on this thread, you would see that it is claimed ONLY being a Catholic is true Christianity. That the author I cited in the OP had the temerity to explain why he left the Roman Catholic Church, has been met with numerous comments that state the same thing. He is called all number of derogatory names and is accused of lying about his sources. I hope you don't just skip over those. Nearly every day there are threads posted by Catholics that rejoice over “Protestants” that leave and go over to Catholicism. Threads that go the other way are seldom posted. I put this one up to test a theory about the bigotry of some FRoman Catholics here. So far, they are proving my point.

You quote the current Catechism that blatantly contradicts earlier statements which denied salvation was even possible outside of the Catholic Church. Luckily, we still have access to those documents that conclusively prove Rome has changed her doctrine on that subject and they HAVE been posted already. So, either the Catholic Church was wrong then or it's wrong now. Which is it? You can save the “developing understanding” rationalization - I don't buy it.

[metmom]

CB, I read through your posts on this thread and fail to see what is unloving about them.

Mostly you post Scripture in response to queries. Sometimes you ask a question to clarify something. On occasion you point out error.

But I have never seen you mock or ridicule, or insult others. You do not engage in name calling. You don’t lie or beat around the bush. People ask you questions and they get answers, which they obviously don’t like, but nobody can say they don’t know where you’re coming from.

Maybe you need to start getting gushy at the end of your posts and add little smilies or with peace be unto you or something smarmy and condescending. Maybe that would give people the warm fuzzies and make the FEEL better.

[Syncro]

This bears repeating, thanks boatbums:

...Jesus Christ, who saves us from our sins. Believers in Christ BECOME his body, his bride, and just as he will never leave or forsake them, they will not leave him because the Holy Spirit dwells within us and we have the witness in ourselves that we are children of God. Organizational churches - such as those that DO have weeds mixed within the wheat - often DO leave God. But that is not the same thing. Jesus' church, his body, is composed of all believers in him from all time, all places, all walks of life and he is the one who calls us out and separates us from the world. It is to us that he promised to lead into all truth and to never leave or cast out.

Amen, the church, His church, the body of Christ.

[metmom]

Do not accuse another Freeper of hatred, it is mind reading, i.e. "making it personal."

Where did I do that? I reviewed my posting history on this thread and don't see the post.

[metmom]

*SIGH*

Here again, we have the same claims that the church doesn't teach that outside of it there is no salvation, but historical documents again show it otherwise.

My understanding is that some of these pronouncements are from popes speaking ex cathedra.

That means it is infallible in the matter of faith and morals.

So now these are not considered correct? How many *truths* can there be? Which is true. The first one or the second one?

If the first one isn't true, then the popes are NOT infallible in the matter of faith and morals. Well, we've certainly seen they're not infallible in the matter of morals. Now it's obvious they are not infallible in the matter of faith either because two opposite things cannot both be true.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

And some examples of papal pronouncements reiterated repeatedly over the years.

Here's the link and just SOME of the quotes from the popes.

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302): "We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. One is she of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her' (Canticle of Canticles 6:8); which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism' (Ephesians 4:5). Certainly Noah had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide, namely Noah, outside of which we read all living things were destroyed… We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

— Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Promulgated November 18, 1302) "If, therefore, the Greeks or others say that they are not committed to Peter and to his successors, they necessarily say that they are not of the sheep of Christ, since the Lord says that there is only one fold and one shepherd (Jn.10:16). Whoever, therefore, resists this authority, resists the command of God Himself. "

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html

And there are lots more at the link.

[Religion Moderator]

Your post 248 brought the word into the discussion. The reply at 263 indicates it was taken personally. Normally I do not intervene when posters take things personally (only when statements are made personal) - but your reply at 267 - though rephased much better without the offensive word - suggests that the other poster’s reaction was justified.