Posted on 04/08/2013 9:22:31 AM PDT by DouglasKC
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
(e-Sword:KJV)
This is how one knows one loves his neighbor, and how one knows one loves YHWH.
It is not lawlessness to not keep festivals or dietary laws or any of the carnal ordinances.
Sure it is. It is the very definition of lawlessness... being without the law.
Whether we can truly comprehend the Trinity, as revealed in the scriptures, that is not something I would argue. But that the scripture clearly teaches it, there is no question.
Then you should have no argument with me. As I said, I am basically trinitarian. It is the precision of that definition that I will not adhere to, because that precision cannot be known.... And I will not use it as a cudgel to beat my brethren with, simply because they have a different organizational structure than what is commonly adhered to - Their defenses are no better or worse than yours, and equally as uninformed. And to use it as a litmus test for whether one is a Christian or not is wholly without merit according to the Word.
Perhaps that is why it offends me.
“You choose what Augustine wrote that you agree with and that which you don’t - in cases that concern doctrine and dogma for example.”
When it comes to salvation by the grace of God, and the predestination of the Saints, in opposition to Pelagians and Semi-Pelagians (which is the Roman view of today, who argue that salvation is wrought by the man in obedience and cooperation with God), I would have to say that we agree on the issue of greatest importance to our salvation. The doctrine of salvation by grace, through faith, is the center of the Gospel. Without it, there is no Gospel (no “good news”), there is no faith, there is no sacrifice, and there is no salvation.
If the Romanists have abandoned the scriptures, Augustine and the other church fathers on such an important issue, then they have lost the faith entirely. And they cannot claim to have an unbroken line of tradition going back 2,000 years, when they have revolutionized and destroyed the Gospel as it stands.
Whatever the case, where Augustine and I meet, it is in wonderful agreement as friends. Where you and Augustine differ, you have become opponents, condemned by the Church long before the modern day Romans. (FYI, the Church condemned the heresy of Pelagianism, ironically, which they now uncondemn without explanation.)
“If something of Augustine’s disagrees with Church teaching we can’t therefore say the Church disagrees with itself. “
What you continue to not understand is that there is no consistent tradition of Romanism for you to appeal to. It is all later Romanism, imagining itself into the past, when all we find our Bishops and Popes who hold different conceptions of what church tradition and teaching even is. Augustine is simply one example, one of many, of Bishops who taught, and preached, entirely different things, in total communion one with another on the major issues.
And where they differed on major issues, they met in council so that the Church remain one and universal; we see as very important, important enough to be in the creeds.
This really is my only point here, the difference between individuals and the Church in authority over dogma and doctrine. There wasn't a Calvinist and Arminian doctrinal split and sub-split and so on.
Speaking personally, I think Calvinist double predestination goes to far in denying that God created man with free will. And I think it wrong to go to far the other way in saying man can save himself. I think the Catholic Church has the mix right and according to Sacred Scripture.
Thanks much for your courteous discussion.
“This is how one knows one loves his neighbor, and how one knows one loves YHWH.”
These are the commandments:
Rom_13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
As has already been shown, we are not bound to anything else beyond this.
You are just repeating yourself while refusing to acknowledge the scriptures I have presented. No matter how many times you say it, Romans 14 and other scriptures have already ruled you out. To love one’s neighbor fulfills the law, fulfills the commandments, and all you’re doing is asking us to add works to grace.
And FYI, I know I love God, and I reject utterly your works-theology. As did Paul, and all the Apostles. This is really all that real believers need be concerned about. Not with people, trying to steal our liberty.
Gal_5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
And FYI, if one claims we must follow dietary and festival days, it must follow we are bound to it all, and must be circumcised, and follow all of the commandments of the Old Testament.
But this we know:
Gal 2:14-16 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? (15) We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, (16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
I’ll follow the example of Paul, and rebuke those who, living as Gentiles, demand others live under the yoke of the Jews, which they themselves aren’t able to bare.
“Then you should have no argument with me. As I said, I am basically trinitarian. It is the precision of that definition that I will not adhere to, because that precision cannot be known.... And I will not use it as a cudgel to beat my brethren with, simply because they have a different organizational structure than what is commonly adhered to - Their defenses are no better or worse than yours, and equally as uninformed. And to use it as a litmus test for whether one is a Christian or not is wholly without merit according to the Word.”
The scripture is quite precise and clear on the matter. What you mean by “basically” Trinitarian, who knows, but I view it with suspicion. When you say, “a different organizational structure,” I have no idea what that means. The roles of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are well defined. But as for using it as a weapon to beat the brethren with. You certainly have no angst against promoting your doctrines, contrary to the scriptures:
Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
I’ll receive you on this matter, but I won’t let it slide when you preach it openly, and this you do in much greater detail than in defining your stance on the Trinity, an issue of much greater importance which is not unclear in the scripture, contrary to your claim that it could not be found therein. I’ll not accept your assertions, and your claims that my position is ignorant, when you do not address the scripture nor provide any.
It is much worse to offend God by having a low regard for the Truth, and in embracing doubtful disputations which offend the liberty we have in us in Christ.
“And where they differed on major issues,”
If you differed with Augustine on Pelagianism and the predestination of Saints, you were judged a heretic by the church of that time.
You are also more than welcome to show me all the condemnations Augustine received for all his rebellious positions.
Let’s have specifics, not your assertions and hopes and fancies.
“I think the Catholic Church has the mix right and according to Sacred Scripture.”
I really doubt you understand Augustian’s theology on the matter, or the theology of Paul or of Jesus Christ. Whether you “mix” the scriptures with something else is irrelevant. Your position has no basis in the scripture.
You are more than welcome to try to define Calvinism, and then defend your position and argue against it, and then I will walk all over you with the plain wording of the scripture. If it were a fist fight, I’d consider it almost criminal in how I’d be knocking you around. Come! Pull out your dagger. Damned be he who first cries, Hold, Enough!
A discussion/debate of the specifics, and not a retreat to your unspecifics, is the only real discussion worth having.
I don’t think Augustine was rebellious at all, he very much recognized the authority of the Church.
I’m pretty well debated out after all these years on these threads, butI can summarize my objections to Calvinist double predestination as: Salvation by election is incorrect doctrine.
And, I left my dagger in my other pants. :)
“I don’t think Augustine was rebellious at all, he very much recognized the authority of the Church.”
If your thesis is that the church disagreed with Augustine, or that the church disagreed with “Pope” Gregory on the Bishops of Antioch, Alexandria, and Rome all possessing the Throne of Peter, and that there is an unbroken tradition that they must have been teaching in contradiction to, then they can be nothing except rebellious.
“butI can summarize my objections to Calvinist double predestination as: Salvation by election is incorrect doctrine.”
You’re confused on what an objection is. We already know you disagree with it. Saying, “my objection is: I disagree!” doesn’t do anything. But, it does summarize the Romanist answer to those who oppose them.
My sharp sword is always ready, out of season and in season:
2Ti_4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
When you’re ready to explain “double predestination,” or your own stance, or what your objections even are, aside from the fact that Rome is against what their council once supported, my sword will be waiting to unseam your arguments from the head to the toe, and place the head of your arguments up upon Christ’s battlements, all bloody and frightful.
A rebel can disagree but he still submits to authority.
Salvation by election goes against salvation by grace through faith. In Calvinist predestination, everything is conditional upon election. No election, no grace, no faith, no salvation.
I don't know where you get that. Please see the words of St. Augustine himself:
"I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table, which you now look upon and of which last night were made participants. You ought to know what you have received, what you are going to receive, and what you ought to receive daily. That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the Word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the Word of God, is the blood of Christ.... What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ." (Sermons 227).
"The faithful know what I am saying. They know Christ in the breaking of the bread. For not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, becomes Christ’s body" (Sermons 234, 2).
And more importantly when Jesus had the opportunity to walk back his teaching he reinforced it:
"Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
"Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” - John 6:52-58
Peace be with you
I totally flubbed the first sentence up. Meant something more like:
A man can disagree but he is not a rebel if he still submits to authority.
It is disappointing to see Catholics like St. Paul and St. Augustine being touted as proto-Protestants by selecting a few carefully chosen quotes and ignoring their life and the body of their work firmly confirming their Catholicity.
Peace be with you
True.
It would be most difficult to fit St. Augustine into a TULIP.
:)
And where does it say that?
Read the prophets. You'll find it... Sacrifices, Holy Days, and all... Pay particular attention to Isaiah and Ezekiel.
And why does Paul say that no one should judge another for not esteeming one day over another, or vice versa?
If you are correct, why then is Paul seen keeping the Sabbath, Hurrying to get to Passover in Jerusalem, and completing a Nazerite vow by shaving his head? What, Paul is keeping Torah, and telling others not to?
And where does it say that Jesus does not fulfill the law [...]
Of course Yeshua fulfills the law. And he told YOU to do so too.
and that men are not saved through Christ and not through the workings of any law?
Again, you will find *no where* in the Tanakh that says the law is for salvation. It has ALWAYS been about grace.
If you think you should celebrate festivals, because you are still in the shadows about them, I suppose you are free to do so. It makes no difference to me, and it makes no difference to God.
Funny that, because Paul declared the Holy Days 'shadows of good things to come' long, long after the ascension... Yet according to him, there is still fulfillment on it's way (things to come). Yet you are telling me that Yeshua fulfilled ALL already.
Paul also states plainly that those who keep the times and seasons (Holy Days) will know the time of the end - it will not sneak up on them like a thief... Nah, I think your take on Paul leaves somewhat to be desired.
We are complete in Christ, we who believe, and not through the working of the law:
Sure, but He told us to keep the law. Not the ordinances of men, but the law.
Shouldn’t it bug you more that you, who seek to put a yoke on others to obey and observe these carnal ordinances, do not even follow them yourself?
You keep coming up with 'carnal ordinances' as though that is the law of YHWH. The thing that YHWH said was good and wholesome, and not grievous is carnal? REALLY? I think you should go back through the NT and discern the places that 'dogma' is used. You will never find it in reference to YHWH's law. And it is 'dogma' that is carnal. Traditions.
That I cannot follow is to be expected. I've been told all my life that the law of YHWH is unimportant. Christian tradition ignores the law. and Judaism's tradition is the very tradition that Yeshua excoriated. It takes time to suss it all out.
And not one Jot or Title has been undone, because Christ has fulfilled them, having been the point of them in the first place. Why cling to that which was only a shadow of Christ?
Fine. Please educate me on how the fall feasts have been fulfilled. And how all of prophecy is already wrapped up... If that were true, then Yeshua would be King of all, and sitting on David's throne in Jerusalem.
Here's the problem: YHWH gave the law to the Hebrews, put them on a 2500 year journey, tore them to shreds for not keeping that law, over and over, just to send Yeshua to declare that the law means nothing? ... A declaration they could not possibly pay attention to, since the very law (that you claim means nothing) told them not to listen to anyone who changed even the smallest bit of the law, not to mention throwing it out willy-nilly.
That's the thing. It is a ludicrous thing - And if that's what Yeshua did, then He is necessarily a false prophet. Spend some time in the Old Testament. Then you may find out why Yeshua calls his own 'those who keep the commandments of YHWH and have the testimony of Yeshua the Messiah'.
'That the lawless one may be revealed' - The father of lies is lawless... without the law... And the whore is lawless... without the law... Be careful who you believe.
Good night.
“A rebel can disagree but he still submits to authority.”
And bears poo in the woods, trees make noise when they fall unseen in the forest, and all the king’s horses and all the king’s men, can’t put together an argument for you which reconciles the fact that a “Pope” and a Bishop ARE the authority people submitted to; nor can they put together an argument for you wherein they provide evidence they were actually in rebellion to anyone at all.
Methinks it’s time for you to make an argument with actual substance, as these assertions do nothing for you.
“Salvation by election goes against salvation by grace through faith.”
So you DO have a dagger! But, a rather small one, and very dull, probably a butter knife. On what basis do you make this assertion? Is there an argument to go along with it that maybe you pressed delete on? You should rewrite it, post-haste.
In the meantime, as is usually my sad fate, I’ll have to respond to an argument not made. Let’s check the scripture and see what it says.
First of all, Election isn’t the same thing as Salvation. It is the plan of God, from eternity, to save a man:
2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
It is the plan of God, BEFORE the world began, without any regard for any foreseen merits or anything else. “Not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace...” It is worth emphasizing again: It is BEFORE they have done any good or evil, according to His will, to bless whom He will, and have mercy on whom He will, so it is not on him that runneth, or him that willeth, but on God who has mercy:
Rom 9:10-16 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) (12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. (13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. (15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Therefore, it is according to God’s grace that men are predestinated, are called, are given faith, and are justified. Election is merely a detail, it is not the cause. It is God’s purpose and grace that is the cause of all that follows:
Rom 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Now, faith itself is the result of grace, and not of ourselves. It is the gift of God:
1Co_12:3 ... and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
It is God who must reveal to the man that Jesus Christ is Lord. Those who believe, who hear the external call of the Gospel, are those who, by the grace of God, are able to respond to the effectual calling of God:
Act_13:48 ... and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
No man can believe in Jesus Christ, unless it is given to them by God:
Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Notice that they do not believe... BECAUSE it was not given unto them by the Father. Christ says this frequently in response to unbelievers:
Joh 6:42-44 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? (43) Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. (44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Jews murmured, and instead of explaining the parable outright, Christ says they cannot understand it who are not drawn by God.
Again:
Joh 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. (26) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. (30) I and my Father are one.
His sheep are known by Christ, and are given to Him by the Father. This is an effectual calling. No man can stop the Sheep from hearing Christ’s voice. Those who do not believe, do not believe BECAUSE they are not Sheep.
The reason why God must operate on a man to save Him is because man, in his natural condition, is simply too wicked and irrational to seek after God:
Rom 3:8-19 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. (9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; (10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: (14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: (15) Their feet are swift to shed blood: (16) Destruction and misery are in their ways: (17) And the way of peace have they not known: (18) There is no fear of God before their eyes. (19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
This is not the fault of God, who offers salvation to all who would repent and come to Him. But, they simply do not repent and come to Him. They cannot. They choose not to everytime they are given the choice with their own will.
Thus salvation is the work of God, all in all, and not us who choose God with our own good sense, or with our own righteousness, earning our way to heaven:
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
“I don’t know where you get that. Please see the words of St. Augustine himself:”
Please see the words of Augustine himself:
“If a passage is perceptive, and either forbids a crime or wickedness, or enjoins usefulness or charity, it is not figurative. But if it seems to command a crime or wickedness, or to forbid usefulness or kindness, it is figurative. Unless ye shall eat, he says, the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood, ye shall not have life in you. He appears to enjoin wickedness or a crime. It is a figure, therefore, teaching us that we partake of the benefits of the Lord’s passion, and that we must sweetly and profitably treasure up in our memories, that his flesh was crucified and wounded for us.”— The third book upon Christian Doctrine
More:
“Jesus answered and said to him, This is the work of God, that ye believe in him whom he hath sent. To do this is to eat the meat which perishes not, but endures unto eternal life. Why do you prepare your teeth and your stomach? Believe only and you will have eaten.” — The 5th treatise upon the 6th chapter of the Gospel of John
“And more importantly when Jesus had the opportunity to walk back his teaching he reinforced it:”
More importantly, Christ’s words are spiritual, which is what He said when explaining them:
Joh 6:61-63 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? (62) What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? (63) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
How can the flesh of Christ and His blood save you by eating and munching if you neither eat Him nor drink Him through faith? It is the Spirit which is always the higher truth, not carnal ordinances:
Heb_9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
It is a backwards religion to try to perfect with the flesh what Christ has wrought spiritually.
Joh 4:21-24 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. (22) Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. (23) But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. (24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
If this is spiritual worship, which is not determined by worshipping in any physical locale, but in the dephts of the heart, it does not follow that one must now, with the teeth and mouth, eat God in a Romanist Church, with the vain hope that physical acts will result in spiritual fruits. The wafers are eaten, which you say is the body of Christ, and is merely dumped out again with all the refuse. It’s a blasphemy and a vanity.
“It is disappointing to see Catholics like St. Paul and St. Augustine being touted as proto-Protestants by selecting a few carefully chosen quotes and ignoring their life and the body of their work firmly confirming their Catholicity.”
You’re more than welcome to join into the fray, and actually provide an argument with your assertion, with actual evidence. I’ll not hold my breath though, considering how tough it has been to draw you out so far.
You’ll have to save convincing me that St. Augustine wasn’t really Catholic for another time. But..
I’ve lost count of the battles of dueling verses on the Calvinist vs. Everybody Else on these threads; if you haven’t seen the ones contrary to yours, I’ll look for a link, just ask.
Bottom line for me is salvation by grace through faith. Calvinism starts out in some decent ways but ends up with a capricious god and robot man. There is no relationship possible there, no love possible there. This should be a non-starter for Christian doctrine.
So, no matter what verses you step on for each step, no matter how you get there, when you end up at that place, you can know you made a wrong turn somewhere, somehow.
thanks very much..
“Read the prophets. You’ll find it... Sacrifices, Holy Days, and all... Pay particular attention to Isaiah and Ezekiel.”
I’ve read them. And I read in the New Testament that they are fulfilled by Christ. You’re more than welcome to post the scripture and explain it for me.
“If you are correct, why then is Paul seen keeping the Sabbath, Hurrying to get to Passover in Jerusalem, and completing a Nazerite vow by shaving his head? What, Paul is keeping Torah, and telling others not to?”
1Co 9:19-22 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. (20) And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; (21) To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. (22) To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
Paul was certainly not living as a Jew, under the Law, when he was recommending us to eat whatever a Gentile sets before us. Paul is pragmatic, and uses his liberty for the purpose of God:
1Co 10:23-33 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. (24) Let no man seek his own, but every man another’s wealth. (25) Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: (26) For the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof. (27) If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. (28) But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof: (29) Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man’s conscience? (30) For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks? (31) Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. (32) Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: (33) Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
His liberty is secure, and is not bound to the dietary laws, feast days, or even from abstaining from things sacrificed to idols. It is bound only to his desire to serve God, and win men to Christ.
“Again, you will find *no where* in the Tanakh that says the law is for salvation.”
Good! So then I will stay with grace, and pay your remarks no mind at all, since they neither save me nor damn me.
“You keep coming up with ‘carnal ordinances’ as though that is the law of YHWH. The thing that YHWH said was good and wholesome, and not grievous is carnal? “
I didn’t come up with it. I quoted it from Hebrews, wherein the Apostle Paul calls all your precious works “carnal ordinances” that cannot make a man perfect.
I’m sorry, but eating pork, or missing the sabbath, or not celebrating the Passover, is inferior to the dreadful act of not loving my neighbor as myself. It is this latter deed that fulfills the commandments, and not anything you have said.
“Fine. Please educate me on how the fall feasts have been fulfilled.”
It’s a long subject, so here’s a link instead which shows how the Passover prefigures Jesus Christ, as an example:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/passover.html
There can be no question that Christ fulfills the passover. He IS the Lamb of God.
“You’ll have to save convincing me that St. Augustine wasn’t really Catholic for another time. But..”
I was providing evidence that YOU aren’t Catholic, according to Augustine’s standards, which in its actual meaning only means “universal,” as in the universal body of Christ, made up of all believers.
“I’ve lost count of the battles of dueling verses on the Calvinist vs. Everybody Else on these threads;”
I’ve already been doing it for weeks, and the usual Romanist response is to putter out without much conflict. It ends almost as quickly as it begins, with them only expressing how they are personally against the idea, but without actually addressing the scriptures.
“Bottom line for me is salvation by grace through faith.”
Good! That isn’t Rome’s position though. It’s grace bought through human acts, with faith thrown in, and lots of obedience, with man ultimately being the deciding factor. Thus, grace is not grace, since it is by works that you hope to be saved.
You deny the sovereignty of God in having mercy on whom He will have mercy:
Rom_9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
“Calvinism starts out in some decent ways but ends up with a capricious god and robot man.”
So says you, but this is what the scripture say:
Joh 10:26-28 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
As a Sheep in a relationship with God, I am infinitely inlove with my God, who plucked me from the fire, though I deserved it not. Who loves me, though I deserve it not. Who gave me His grace, though I deserve it not.
Like the Earth revolves the sun, so I also revolve around my God, depending on Him, and taking comfort in His promises who chose me before the foundation of the world, not because I am better than anyone else, but because He is good and perfect and Holy.
“This should be a non-starter for Christian doctrine.”
It is a non-starter for Christian doctrine that denies what Christ said directly:
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
If I chose Christ, I make Him a liar. But if Christ chose me, I confirm the scriptures, and the love and mercy of God, who saved me. Just like Jeremiah:
Jer_1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Like Paul:
Gal 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, (16) To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Like all believers:
2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
You war against God and the scriptures, and your rationalizations are based on your own thinking, not on thinking on what the scriptures teach.
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