Posted on 02/25/2013 1:57:31 PM PST by Jo Nuvark
Charedi ("ultra-Orthodox") Jews are "anti-Zionist" in that they reject Zionism as a modern, secular European nationalist movement that sought to create an ethnically Jewish but modern European-style state in the Holy Land. However, they still believe that one day Mashiach will come, gather all Jews to 'Eretz Yisra'el, and reinstitute the Kingdom of David.
Most non-Jewish anti-Zionists interpret "Zionism" as something completely different--a "plot to rule the world." Anti-Semitic gentiles often invoke anti-Zionist Charedim in their own war against "Jewish world rule." However, even the most anti-Zionist Charedim still believe in "Jewish world rule" in the sense of the Kingdom of G-d on earth, with its capital in Jerusalem. Thus anti-Zionist gentiles who believe "anti-Zionist" Charedim are opposed to the alleged "Jewish plot to rule the world" are making fools of themselves, in two ways: 1)Zionism is not a "plot to rule the world" but a mere secular nationalist movement, and 2)all Orthodox Jews, including the Charedim, believe Mashiach will rule the world.
Let's hope we've seen the last of this idiocy at FR (but something tells me we should know better).
Do you honestly believe that "anti-Zionist" Orthodox Jews are any friendlier to chrstianity than Zionists are? If anything, it's the other way around. Zionism was originally a mere secular ethnic nationalism and Herzl offered to have all the Jews baptized. Judaism, however, is totally incompatible with chrstianity. And if you don't believe that, try preaching your Yushqe to the anti-Zionists you're so fond of.
And on that, we're in agreement too.
Thank you ZC.
That’s the kind of response I was hoping for.
I did not realize anti-zionism is linked to non
Jews and is considered racist and anti-semitic.
THAT is not what I’m trying to get at. I am
simply trying to understand the difference
between Judaism and Zionism. After reading
the article I believe there is a difference and
people should be as informed as you appear to
be.
Thank you for taking the time to respond with
courtesy and knowledge.
Jews might not believe they are compatible with
Christianity, but without the context and prism
of Hebrew Roots, Christians cannot fully under-
stand what it means to be Christian.
The NT is a gentile primer to get believers up
to speed on what this “grafting” really means.
(my opinion)
There is a very simple definition of Zionism: a Jew who lives in Israel. That was the point of Herzl founding the movement. The citizens are required to fight wars, at least one in each decade; stand against terrorist waves; keep an eye on neighbors who build nukes: Iraq (destroyed), Syria (destroyed), Iran (pending), and meanwhile try to keep a job, raise the kids, and pay your taxes. Jews who live outside Israel can say whatever they want. It doesn’t change anything. Some will come and some will go. Those who stay are Zionists, for better or for worse.
Flat out garbage! Genesis has Hashem saying to the Jews to leave the land of their birth and go to the land I will show you (Judea). Zionism is based in the Jewish religion.
Oh well -- and I never get to write this -- IBTZ!
CBRA ... Commenting Before Reading Article.
Modern political Zionism is based on the hope that Jews do not need Judaism to survive as Jews, something that is impossible long-term.
Religious Jews respond to the secular State of Israel basically in one of three ways:
1) The State of Israel is the precursor to the Messianic Age and should be supported wholeheartedly.
2) The State of Israel does not *necessarily* have any messianic implications, but it is a place of refuge for persecuted Jews and home to almost half the Jews in the world and deserves support for those reasons.
3) The State of Israel is just another nation under non-Jewish sovereignty, but the Land of Israel is still holy and it is meritorious to live there regardless of the sinful nature of its government, which does not merit support.
The G. J. Neuberger quoted is in fact a member of Neturei Karta.
Thank you for taking my post seriously and for
offering a cogent reply. You seem to be saying
what I am beginning to understand; there is a
difference between Judaism and Zionism. For the
moment I agree with your second definition.
Don’t you wish more people would read the article
before responding?
Neturei Karta is an international organization
of Orthodox Jews dedicated to the propagation
and clarification of Torah Judaism.
For the moment I believe your second definition best describes Zionism.
Posting an article from Neturei Karta is perhaps more inflammatory than you wish to be.
There are respectable skeptics of Zionism and even respectable anti-Zionists such as Satmar Chassidim, but Neturei Karta goes far beyond that into outright mental illness. NK followers probably number no more than in the dozens, BTW.
Thank you.
Did not know that about NK.
I will research SC.
If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.
..................
Zionism, of course, is an essentially secular movement, essentially validating the right of Jews to live where they wish. A simplistic concept, perhaps, only nutballs question the ability of Americans to live in America, but as a eurocentric movement, it's roots are in a nearly millenia old culture which told Jews to live where and under circumstances directed, and don't whine about it.
The early Zionists were not religious Jews, simply forsaw the future of Europe better than many of their co-religionists.
If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.
..................
Zionism, of course, is an essentially secular movement, essentially validating the right of Jews to live where they wish. A simplistic concept, perhaps, only nutballs question the ability of Americans to live in America, but as a eurocentric movement, it's roots are in a nearly millenia old culture which told Jews to live where and under circumstances directed, and don't whine about it.
The early Zionists were not religious Jews, simply forsaw the future of Europe better than many of their co-religionists.
If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.
..................
Zionism, of course, is an essentially secular movement, essentially validating the right of Jews to live where they wish. A simplistic concept, perhaps, only nutballs question the ability of Americans to live in America, but as a eurocentric movement, it's roots are in a nearly millenia old culture which told Jews to live where and under circumstances directed, and don't whine about it.
The early Zionists were not religious Jews, simply forsaw the future of Europe better than many of their co-religionists.
While it is difficult to begrudge a homeland, obtaining it by any and all means goes against the fundamental tenets of Judaism.
“Give it to us now or we will take it by force”
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