Posted on 02/24/2013 11:55:01 AM PST by daniel1212
The following is part of a letter by Clement, probably that Clement mentioned by Paul in Philippians 4:3. He probably lived from about 30AD to as far as the end of that 1st century.
He writes:
“Let your children be partakers of true Christian training; let them learn of how great avail humility is with God-how much the spirit of pure affection can prevail with Him-how excellent and great His fear is, and how it saves all those who walk in(94) it with a pure mind. For He is a Searcher of the thoughts and desires [of the heart]: His breath is in us; and when He pleases, He will take it away. “
How does that strike you?
From Ignatius who lived from about 30 AD until 107 AD, martyred under Emperor Trajan. Ignatius writes to Christians in Philadelphia:
“Children, obey your parents, and have an affection for them, as workers together with God for your birth [into the world]. Servants, be subject to your masters in God, that ye may be the freed-men of Christ.(28) Husbands, love your wives, as fellow-servants of God, as your own body, as the partners of your life, and your co-adjutors in the procreation of children. Virgins, have Christ alone before your eyes, and His Father in your prayers, being enlightened by the Spirit. May I have pleasure in your purity, as that of Elijah, or as of Joshua the son of Nun, as of Melchizedek, or as of Elisha, as of Jeremiah, or as of John the Baptist, as of the beloved disciple, as of Timothy, as of Titus, as of Evodius, as of Clement, who departed this life in [perfect] chastity,(29) Not, however, that I blame the other blessed [saints] because they entered into the married state, of which I have just spoken.(30) For I pray that, being found worthy of God, I may be found at their feet in the kingdom, as at the feet of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob; as of Joseph, and Isaiah, and the rest of the prophets; as of Peter, and Paul, and the rest of the apostles, that were married men. For they entered into these marriages not for the sake of appetite, but out of regard for the propagation of mankind. Fathers, “bring up your children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord; “(31) and teach them the holy Scriptures, and also trades, that they may not indulge in idleness. Now [the Scripture] says, “A righteous father educates [his children] well; his heart shall rejoice in a wise son.”
“How does that strike you?”
Fantastic! It’s good advice concerning what every Christian parent should do to raise godly kids.
It’s good, godly advice - his opinion as a believer. It certainly isn’t equal to Holy Scripture. It also doesn’t show any infants being baptized.
I have no idea why you posted it?
Again, great quote. No wet infants other than diapers (presumably)
“How can it be a definition if it is not biblical???”
A definition can be Biblical. That is different than a specific verse quotation. Surely you will realize that when you give it some thought. The creeds are Biblical. They do not quote passages.
Ditto as before. No submerged infants, but an interesting quotation.
Don’t make this thread about me, it’s about truth which wasn’t received. Nothing new here.
Amen!
The point is that the early Christians in the late first, second, and third centuries were weighty in many ways in their understanding of the Lord.
Moreover, they were subject to martyrdom. They must have had deep concern for their children given their likely capture and punishment by the authorities.
“I gave up everything for the Kingdom of God, but now my baby & kids will be raised by pagans or sold into pagan slavery and never be taught about Jesus.”
The point is that the early Christians in the late first, second, and third centuries were weighty in many ways in their understanding of the Lord.
Moreover, they were subject to martyrdom. They must have had deep concern for their children given their likely capture and punishment by the authorities.
“I gave up everything for the Kingdom of God, but now my baby & kids will be raised by pagans or sold into pagan slavery and never be taught about Jesus.”
Irenaeus was concerned with gnostic heresy that was making inroads in the faith and simultaneously lived during the persecution of Marcus Aurelius.
Irenaeus wrote:
"For He came to save all through means of Himself-all, I say, who through Him are born again to God(148) -infants,(149) and children, and boys, and youths, and old men. He therefore passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, thus sanctifying infants; a child for children, thus sanctifying those who are of this age, being at the same time made to them an example of piety, righteousness, and submission; a youth for youths, becoming an example to youths, and thus sanctifying them for the Lord. So likewise He was an old man for old men, that He might be a perfect Master for all, not merely as respects the setting forth of the truth, but also as regards age, sanctifying at the same time the aged also, and becoming an example to them likewise. Then, at last, He came on to death itself, that He might be "the first-born from the dead, that in all things He might have the pre-eminence,"(150) the Prince of life,(151) existing before all, and going before all.(152) "
“The point is that the early Christians in the late first, second, and third centuries were weighty in many ways in their understanding of the Lord.”
Your point is, of course, interesting, but also irrelevant to the conversation we’ve had here. Though living early, they were not equal to the weight of Scripture.
Irenaeus got a lot of things right. He was instrumental in arguing against Gnosticism.
Without denigrating those positives, he does not write (that I’ve ever seen) that infants should be baptized. And what he does right is 100 years after Christ.
Show me in the New Testament the story about an already Christian family welcoming a newborn child, celebrating it, and raising it.
15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said , Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein .
Jesus says in Luke that INFANTS should be able to come to Him.
Peter, apparently learned that lesson well.
Peter said, "39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
Couple that with Irenaeus' words that infants can be born again. "He came to save all through means of Himself-all, I say, who through Him are born again to God(148) -infants,(149) and children, and boys, and youths, and old men. "
xzins,
I give you lots of credit for perseverance. Unfortunately, your scholarship is still developing.
Luke 18 - Parents bring infants to Jesus to ask for Him to bless them, but not to baptize them. This was a Jewish custom for rabbis to bless children. This would have been a great place for Him to tell them to baptize their infants, had that been God’s desire. It doesn’t happen.
Acts 2:39 - The promise of the Holy Spirit was the result of salvation and was a gift to all who believe - the Jews, their descendants, and gentiles who were far off. Please note that they had to respond to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Again, nothing about baptism for infants. You are simply finding the word “children”, taking that to mean “infants” (which is not the greek word here), and implying baptism is in the passage. It is not. Would have been a great place for Peter to follow up with telling parents to baptize children, if that was God’s intent. It didn’t happen.
Irenaeus, though used by God, didn’t speak for him. His words were not inspired Scripture.
In the end, we are back to where we started:
No where does the Bible show an infant being baptized.
No where does the Bible command the baptism of anyone - including an infant - that has not already believed and professed Christ.
No where does the Bible provide instructions about baptism for infants.
The idea did not originate in the Bible. It is made up out of whole cloth.
"Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. “For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
Note that the gift of the Holy Spirit to the Jews and their descendants and gentiles followed Peter's exhortation to "repent and be baptized." To repent means you acknowledge you are moving in the wrong direction and change. Infants cannot do any of that.
Don’t make this thread about me,
I thank you for your time, and that is making the thread about you? LOL, you must have a lot of things that are about you, but this wasn't one of them.
I agree and it's not, personally, about anyone else, either. It should be about truth; if anyone makes or takes it personal, they aren't interested in truth but stuck in pride.
Amen!
'Man' went against God's Word from the beginning and we see some are hell bent on continuing it. They are unteachable.
No doubt
To recap, we have:
A Jewish tradition that accepts the inclusion of infants into the body of believers.
Paul saying our children are uniquely set aside in the eyes of God. (1 Co 7)
We have Peter saying the promise is to our children.
We have Jesus saying that infants should not be prevented from coming to him.
We have Lydia accepting Christ and her entire household being baptized.
We have through the first 150 years of the church a consensus on the part of church leaders that parents are responsible within the church for the spiritual training of their children.
We have one of them saying that infants can be born again.
Those are the facts presented up to this point.
As to your point about a rabbi blessing infants.
How do they come to Him now? His point was not local for that day for He told them to not to forbid it for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.