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The Scandal of Jesus’ Birth
Gutenberg College ^ | Dec 22, 2006 | Jack Crabtree

Posted on 12/26/2012 12:21:18 PM PST by HarleyD

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To: rusty schucklefurd
I agree with several of your points including when they arrived in Bethlehem. They were commanded to go so they didn't have a choice. But it doesn't appear they arrived months earlier otherwise there probably would have been room for them-at least somewhere. Of course, then one could consider that, if they expected a large influx of people, the inns most likely jacked up their prices. But the scriptures don't tell us "there was no room at the inn because of price gouging".

What I think is interesting in Crabtree's analysis is the timeline and the predicament of Joseph. While perhaps there is some speculation into exactly when events took place, we know from scripture that

So while Crabtree's timeline is slightly subjective, his analysis of events are not. It was clear they left before anyone knew and arrived when it was obvious. Joseph's respectable alternative to save face was to put Mary away quietly and disavow her. Instead he was willing to endure what must have been the "shame" for the cause of God.
21 posted on 12/26/2012 5:35:48 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: Cvengr

Shame is not like judgement. Judgement flows from an individual in an official sense, while shame is a general sense of reproach and can be formed corporately and amongst a group.

You should not blame the Roman and Jewish authorities for the treatment of our Lord. He did not. He forgave them. Do you realize that what they did, they fulfilled scripture, and that without it, mankind would be lost? Also, Jesus died for OUR sins. It was, in effect the entirety of mankind that crucified Jesus. His blood is on all our hands, just as the guilt of Adams’s sin is on us as well.


22 posted on 12/26/2012 8:05:25 PM PST by BereanBrain
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To: moder_ator

Is it possible to get some clarification as to what was wrong with my comment #9 on this thread? Pulling the comment may be legitimate, but unless I know what was wrong with it I am likely to make the same mistake again.


23 posted on 12/26/2012 8:10:22 PM PST by newheart (The greatest trick the left ever pulled was convincing the world it was not a religion.)
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To: newheart

No reason was logged and I did not see anything wrong with the post, so I restored it.


24 posted on 12/26/2012 8:23:04 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

Thanks


25 posted on 12/26/2012 8:27:53 PM PST by newheart (The greatest trick the left ever pulled was convincing the world it was not a religion.)
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I’m so tempted to post today’s xkcd.com but I won’t.


26 posted on 12/26/2012 8:31:14 PM PST by ctdonath2 (End of debate. Your move.)
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To: HarleyD

Yes, an excellent article. It explains salvation very well.


27 posted on 12/26/2012 9:33:05 PM PST by Lake Living
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To: BereanBrain
Shame is not like judgement.

True. This is why the article preaches a false gospel. The Cross was not about shame, it was all Judgment.

You should not blame the Roman and Jewish authorities for the treatment of our Lord. He did not. He forgave them.

This is a subtle introduction of a false accusation. Blame has not been entered into the discussion in post #19.

Identification of sin is requisite before forgiveness. Our Lord, Christ Jesus, recognized sin when manifest to Him. He then identified that to God the Father, when He requested the Father forgive that sin. Until the work of the Cross was finished, Judgment was performed by God the Father.

The work of the Cross was Judgment, not forgiveness. The judgment allows a righteous God to justly forgive.

This is a fundamental difference between Christianity and other religions and stressed in the Tabernacle rituals of worship. The Perfect Justice of God is also a major stumbling block to Islam.

A common stumbling block to those drawn to Christ is confusing emotion for salvation. The article promotes this confusion by preaching a false gospel of shame as the work of the Cross.

28 posted on 12/27/2012 12:20:23 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr; BereanBrain
The Cross was not about shame, it was all Judgment.

The term "shame" is defined in the Greek as "dishonor". It is used in several places:

Same Greek word. Christ did not mind suffering shame (dishonor) and punishment for us that we should have bore. This is penal substitution, something which Catholics do not believe-at least not any longer.

From the article:

Now what part do you not agree with?
29 posted on 12/27/2012 7:24:17 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

The entire blasphemous article.

Jesus Christ is not a sinner. Even the Scripture presented defeats the premise of the article.

Heb 12:2
(2) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

If the article were true, the Scripture would indicate Christ accepted the shame, but to the contrary He never accepted the shame, but patiently persevered through the ordeal, despising the shame. He was anything other than shamed by the ordeal, although many who do not believe think he was shamed in His thinking on the Cross.

His focus was upon His obedience to the Will of the Father and fulfillment of His Plan.

The judgment is forensic. Christ didn’t sin, nor did He become a sinner, but the sins of the world were imputed upon Him and the penalty of death executed as evidenced when Christ cried out, “Why have you forsaken me?”.

This strategic victory in the angelic conflict manifests the genius of God’s Plan. By remaining true to God the Father, God executed the penalty of sin for all mankind in one.


30 posted on 12/27/2012 8:48:33 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr
The entire blasphemous article. Jesus Christ is not a sinner.

Where on earth does this author state Jesus is a sinner? Paul states that Christ did become sin for us:

2Co_5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

It is this sin that is shame before God. It is our shame that Christ bore.

31 posted on 12/28/2012 8:32:12 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

The third paragraph of the article is a false gospel. It is not the Gospel Paul preached. It is closer to spiritual pornography.

Those who come to Christ through faith in Him, rejoice in the work of the Cross.


32 posted on 12/28/2012 2:15:51 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr
I would suggest you are completely missing the point. Christ died in our place and bore the suffering that we should have endured. What may sound like "pornography" to you is nothing more than the grace of God to others.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

He took OUR sins and nailed it to HIS cross. All our sins, shame, reproach was laid on Christ our Lord. This is the great and merciful sacrifice of God the Son. For without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin. And that includes all the baggage that goes along with it. This is what the early fathers believed and it's the gospel.

Now if you would like to discuss the new and "improved" Catholic version of how Christ came, lived a good life, and died for everyone's sin just so that we might know what true sacrificial living is, and how we should live such a peachy-keen sacrificial life like His and go to heaven; then you're welcome to post some links to the most current Catholic writers who believe such nonsense.

But it's apparent that we have differing views of what pornography is.

33 posted on 12/28/2012 5:35:53 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

I applaud those who recognize He died for our sins.

Our Lord and Savior did not become a sinner, nor did he wallow in shame and guilt when He was on the Cross.

The article confuses the temptation of sinners before an angry God, who have a tendency to view God from the viewpoint of unrighteousness, anticipating fiery indignation, instead of the perspective of Jesus Christ who disregarded shame, for the joy available in remaining obedient to God the Father.

Obviously He bore the sins of all mankind, past, present, and future, when He was judged on the Cross.

He wasn’t shameful in His actions or thinking or in His spirit. Throughout the process, He remained faithful to God the Father.


34 posted on 12/29/2012 9:19:57 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr
Our Lord and Savior did not become a sinner

You have not provided ONE specific reference where the author supposedly makes this claim. Please let me know when you do.

The article confuses the temptation of sinners before an angry God, who have a tendency to view God from the viewpoint of unrighteousness, anticipating fiery indignation

While some may view God as "wrathful" or "vengeful", I do not. God wrath or vengenace is a manifestation of His righteous judgment displayed on an uncaring populace that has gone too far in reprobation.

instead of the perspective of Jesus Christ who disregarded shame, for the joy available in remaining obedient to God the Father.

This is not what Isaiah says:

This paints an entirely different picture than someone who simply disregards shame to do the Father's will.

BTW-It's odd that you're using the term that Christ was shamed when you made such a point against that with this author. Don't you see the contradiction in your view between your two statements?

instead of the perspective of Jesus Christ who disregarded shame

He wasn’t shameful in His actions or ...

35 posted on 12/29/2012 1:33:03 PM PST by HarleyD
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