Posted on 12/26/2012 12:21:18 PM PST by HarleyD
Thanks for posting.
I’ve read that passage and most commentators say the passage is unclear. One way it could be interpreted is the Jewish leaders are referring to Christ’s birth. Another way is the Jewish leaders are referring to themselves. As with other such passages, perhaps it has a duo purpose.
Anybody who believes Christ on the Cross was to receive shame doesn’t understand the Gospel message.
Yes, they did miss it. And I suspect that, had we lived in 1st century Palestine, we would have missed it, too. We can thank God that we live 2000 years later when so much of what is understood about Jesus is settled.
Perhaps we ought to ask God what part of his message that we—being sinners like the Pharisees—are missing today.
You are correct, the Romans did rename the land. Nonetheless my point remains the same:
Yes, they did miss it. And I suspect that, had we lived in 1st century Jerusalem, we would have missed it, too. We can thank God that we live 2000 years later when so much of what is understood about Jesus is settled.
Perhaps we ought to ask God what part of his message that we—being sinners like the Pharisees—are missing today.
Okay. I don't understand your comment. The shameful nature of death on the cross has always been central to my understanding. Not that Christ deserved that shame (I do) but that he suffered that for "the sake of the joy set before him." (Heb. 12:2)
Yet Crabtree says, 'In all likelihood, none of the people in Nazareth—including Joseph and her own family—are yet aware that Mary is pregnant.'
I beg to differ, and very much doubt that Mary left to visit her cousin Elizabeth without Joseph first hearing from the Angel of the Lord - most likely within mere hours of Mary's own visitation.
To be fair neither did Mary or Joseph until an Angel explained it to them personally.
Interesting to think what it was a like for him for years afterwards, living with boy who was not his son, but actually God incarnate, and with a woman who (though herself being perplexed, "turning things over in her heart"), lived in fidelity to the Holy Spirit, Holy and Mighty, Holy and Immortal, Who, overshadowing, espoused her.
re: “He was setting Mary up for scandal. What rational person would not justifiably conclude that a young pregnant woman who was betrothed but unmarried had been sexually unrighteous? God could have prevented that. He could have let the whole village in on the secret. He could have vindicated Mary by making it clear to everyone that He, the Creator of the universe, was responsible for her pregnancy. But He did not. He left her in a condition where shame and dishonor in the eyes of her neighbors would be the inevitable result. Why did God do that?”
I like the article very much. I really do not believe there was any way to avoid putting Mary in an awkward situation - if God’s Son was to be virgin born - if God’s Son was to be fully God, and yet fully human as well, how could this situation be avoided? It could not.
I don’t think it would be possible to avoid scandel either, even if God had revealed this to the entire village (Nazareth probably numbered less than a 1000 people - some say only around 80 people in Jesus’ time!), it was such a small number that rumors would probably still have circulated that Jesus’s birth was questionable.
Re: “Probably after the birth of John, Mary, then three months pregnant, returns to her home in Nazareth where her family and Joseph, the man to whom she is betrothed, await her. In all likelihood, none of the people in Nazareth—including Joseph and her own family—are yet aware that Mary is pregnant.
The next thing we know, Joseph and Mary are required by the census of Caesar Augustus to relocate to Bethlehem. Where this move falls in the chronology of events is not clear.
The most likely reading of the gospel accounts is that their journey to Bethlehem happens shortly after Mary’s return from Elizabeth’s home. If so, then Mary leaves Nazareth with Joseph before any of her family and neighbors know of her pregnancy. And, indeed, it may very well be that Mary and Joseph arrive in Bethlehem before Joseph knows that Mary is pregnant, four or five months before the baby Jesus will be born.”
Ok, I think the writer is mistaken in his assumption that Joseph was not aware that Mary was pregnant, or that he did not know that her pregnancy was due to a miracle from God, before they went to Bethlehem.
The implication in Matthew 1:18-24 and Luke 2 is that Joseph was fully aware of her pregnancy and the miraculous circumstances surrounding her pregnancy prior to his taking her with him to Bethlehem.
The time when Joseph became aware of her pregnancy seems to be on Mary’s return from visiting Elizabeth, according to Luke 2:4-5, but it could have occurred before she left for Elizabeth’s – we just do not know.
We also do not know how much time passes from her return from Elizabeth’s home to when the decree from Augustus is made. In addition, we do not know how much time passes following Mary’s return before she and Joseph leave for Bethlehem, but I think it is obvious that Joseph knew about Mary’s condition and the circumstances of it before they leave for Bethlehem..
The angel tells Joseph that Mary’s story regarding her pregnancy was true and that he should not be afraid to complete their marriage plans. Matthew only says that Joseph waited until after Jesus’ birth to consummate their marriage – this also fits in with Luke’s account in chapter 2 that “Joseph took his betrothed wife to Bethlehem”.
None of this means that he was unaware of her pregnancy or was unaware of the miraculous circumstances of it before leaving for Bethlehem.
Also, I disagree that Mary and Joseph could have been in Bethlehem two or three months before the birth takes place. If they were living in Bethlehem that long before Jesus was born, then why didn’t they have a place to stay? That just doens’t make sense. No, the passages in Luke clearly implicate that they had newly arrived in Bethlehem, her labor begins, and they have no place to be, no room, no house, no nothing.
It also makes no sense that Joseph would bring a very pregnant Mary along with him to Bethlehem, unless he was fully aware of Mary’s condition and the possible religious/moral/social stigma retaliation that might occur if he left her in Nazareth alone. I think Joseph knew he had to bring her along, even though it would be a difficult journey for Mary physically, because leaving her behind in Nazareth could put her in a very dangerous situation.
For these reasons I think the writer is stretching the facts way too much to say that Joseph was ignorant of what was going on.
His point about Joseph’s courage and honor in sharing in Mary’s “scandal” are well taken and true, but, as I said, I do not believe he was unaware of what was happening prior to Bethlehem.
The Cross was all about judgment, not shame.
The sins of all mankind were imputed to Christ on the Cross and He was judged for them.
He wasn’t shamed on the Cross. On the contrary, He remained obedient to the Plan of God the Father when He went to the Cross, so He wasn’t shamed. He was judged and suffered the penalty of sin.
Dear brother in Christ Cvengr,
Please read the following passage.
Gal 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”
My amplification follows.
Jesus took on all sin, received the punishment we all deserve, and is our substitutionary sacrifice. That being said, at the moment when Jesus said “Father, why hast thou forsaken Me?” - it’s because at that moment, Jesus had placed on him the full weight of all the sins of man, from Adam’s time, to the last sin of man in the end times.
What could pay for such a almost infinite amount of sin? Only the blood of an infinite God, humbled to become as a man, unto death on the cross.
Jesus, the Alpha and Omega, the one who knows the beginning from the end (Infinite Wisdom), Jesus, who created the universe from nothing, and holds it together to this day (Infinite Power), who humbled Himself, to become a man, even to death on cross, to save us while we were yet sinners (Infinite Love).
If it was the blood of God, then it wasn’t a substitutionary atonement for the sins of humanity. It was the blood of Jesus Christ, in His humanity, who was judged in His humanity for all human sins.
Well stated.
IMHO, the entire article makes several premises appealing to a worldly system prior to simple faith in what God provides.
The article attempts to substitute shame and emotion for God’s Perfect Justice.
It attempts to label the birth of Christ as a scandal, rather than a fulfillment of His Plan.
It appeals to man-made authority independent of God or sharing in His power as it’s primary object of faith, instead of faith through Christ in Him.
The are many true positions stated in the article, but their summaries all promote placing faith in many different counterfeit substitutes for His Plan and our relationship with God through faith in Christ.
A slight correction. We witness from the quote of our Lord Christ Jesus, that at that moment, Jesus Christ had suffered a spiritual death from God the Father. That death was a consequence of the judgment of all humanity's sins being imputed to Jesus Christ on the Cross. Christ accepted the burden of that imputation and was judged by the Perfect Judgment of the Perfect Righteousness of God the Father.
Once those sins were judged, God the Father was free in His grace to give the human spirit back to Christ via the Holy Spirit and to resurrect the body into the resurrection body as the First Fruits.
Cursed, yes, but this is a different meaning than shamed.
The only shame implied in the Roman and Jewish treatment of our Lord Christ Jesus was based upon a counterfeit substitute to God's Plan in a worldly system of governance.
Even when the mobs spat upon Him, our Lord recognized their sin in judging Him and confusing Him for being sinful by praying to God the Father that He might forgive them for they knew not what they did.
Just beautiful. Thank you for posting.
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