You might need to consider something.
Posted on 04/19/2012 11:58:25 AM PDT by NYer
I saw an advance copy of a survey by William J. Byron and Charles Zech, which will appear in the April 30th edition of “America” magazine.
It was conducted at the request of David O’Connell, the bishop of Trenton, and its focus was very simple: it endeavored to discover why Catholics have left the church. No one denies that a rather substantive number of Catholics have taken their leave during the past 20 years, and Byron and Zech wanted to find out why. They did so in the most direct way possible and asked those who had quit.
The answers they got were, in many ways, predictable. Lots of people cited the church’s teachings on divorce and re-marriage, gay marriage, contraception, and the ordination of women. These matters, of course, have been exhaustively discussed in the years following Vatican II, and I’d be willing to bet that anyone, even those vaguely connected to the Church, could rehearse the arguments on both sides of those issues. But there just isn’t a lot that the church can do about them. No bishop or pastor could make a policy adjustment and announce that divorced and re-married people can receive communion or that a gay couple can come to the altar to be married or a woman present herself for ordination.
What struck me about the survey, however, was that many of the issues that led people to leave the church are indeed matters that can be addressed. Many of the respondents commented that they left because of “bad customer relations.” One woman said that she felt “undervalued by the church” and found “no mentors.” Many more said that their pastors were “arrogant, distant, aloof, and insensitive,” and still others said that their experiences over the phone with parish staffers were distinctly negative. Now I fully understand that parish priests and lay ministers are on the front lines and hence are the ones who often have to say “no” when a parishioner asks for something that just can’t be granted. Sometimes the recipient of that “no” can all too facilely accuse the one who says it as arrogant or indifferent. Nevertheless, the survey can and should be a wake-up call to church leaders—both clerical and non-clerical—that simple kindness, compassion, and attention go a rather long way. I distinctly remember the advice that my first pastor—a wonderful and pastorally skillful priest—gave to the parish secretary: “for many people, you are the first contact they have with the Catholic Church; you exercise, therefore, an indispensable ministry.” One respondent to the survey observed that whenever he asked a priest about a controversial issue, he “got rules, and not an invitation to sit down and talk.” Unfair? Perhaps. But every priest, even when ultimately he has to say “no,” can do so in the context of a relationship predicated upon love and respect.
A second major concern that can and should be addressed is that of bad preaching. Again and again, people said that they left the church because homilies were “boring, irrelevant, poorly prepared,” or “delivered in an impenetrable accent.” Again, speaking as someone who is called upon to give sermons all the time, I realize how terribly difficult it is to preach, how it involves skill in public speaking, attention to the culture, expertise in biblical interpretation, and sensitivity to the needs and interests of an incredibly diverse audience. That said, homilists can make a great leap forward by being attentive to one fact: sermons become boring in the measure that they don’t propose something like answers to real questions. All of the biblical exegesis and oratorical skill in the world will be met with a massive “so what?” if the preacher has not endeavored to correlate the “answers” he provides with the “questions” that beguile the hearts of the people to whom he speaks. Practically every Gospel involves an encounter between Jesus and a person—Peter, Mary Magdalene, Nicodemus, Zacchaeus, etc.—who is questioning, wondering, suffering, or seeking. An interesting homily identifies that longing and demonstrates, concretely, how Jesus fulfills it. When the homily both reminds people how thirsty they are and provides water to quench the thirst, people will listen.
A third eminently correctable problem is one that I will admit I had never thought about before reading this survey. Many of the respondents commented that, after they left the church, no one from the parish contacted them or reached out to them in any way. Now again, I can anticipate and fully understand the objections from pastoral people: many Catholic parishes are huge—upwards of three or four thousand families—and staffs are small. Yet, just as major corporations, serving millions of people, attend carefully to lost customers, so Catholic parishes should prioritize an outreach to those who have drifted (or stormed) away. A phone call, a note, an e-mail, a pastoral visit—anything that would say, “We’ve noticed you’re not coming to Mass anymore. Can we help? Can you tell us what, if anything, we’ve done wrong? We’d love to see you back with us.”
The problem of Catholics leaving the church is, obviously, serious and complex, and anyone who would suggest an easy solution is naïve. However, having listened to a representative sample of those who have left, parishes, priests, and church administrators might take some relatively simple and direct steps that would go a long way toward ameliorating the situation.
Normally, I would let this typical piece of mockery slide - not worthy of comment. But since you pinged Quix, I want to state that it is NOT him to whom I referred. Though he may post cartoons and pics at times, he nearly always states his point. Are you trying to stir the pot?
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
We have it NOW. The guarantee of it is the Holy Spirit in our lives. Anyone who has the Holy Spirit in them can KNOW they are saved because God doesn't lie. The Holy Spirit is our guarantee of our inheritance which we HAVE now.
Whom? I?
Perhaps we may return to the point of the thread which is that people leave Catholicism because of personal reasons and people join the Faith because of theological ones. Or, shall we rejoin the conversation as has been demonstrated and preached by some that we must reject the Gospels and the acts of the Twelve. It is to Paul in whom lies our salvation, they say.
Well? Does Paul contain the formula for salvation in your estimation? Shall we consign Jesus and the 12 to the dustbin of history?
Judgment happens to all.
I’ve already been judged. That all happened when I was born again.
Everyone has a choice. Accept Christ and His forgiveness and let Him be your righteousness, or stand on your own works and Scripture is clear where that will end up.
Anyone who is waiting for their judgment later to be judged on their works will get it, sure enough, but really has got some worrying to do. Their works will damn them.
Romans 2: 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:[a] 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
That's not what Paul says. He says future Judgement.
Anyone who is waiting for their judgment later to be judged on their works will get it, sure enough, but really has got some worrying to do. Their works will damn them.
Anyone who relies on works alone, sure.
I don’t debate with posters who claim I lie.
I don’t debate with posters who post trash like this on the RF.
I'll take His word for it, if you don't mind.
Now, if you really want to further my education please point out the Fruits of the Holy Spirit on your 10 most recent posts. That would be evidence that your admonishments and pronouncements have been inspired and worthy of my consideration.
Peace be to you.
Exactly...Judgment happens to other people...Christians have been judged the moment they accepted Jesus as their Savior...And we have been found to be 'Just'...
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
No condemnation...Not now...Never...
That is still Colossians 2:16 and it is still "Do this in remembrance of me.
Perhaps you need to go back to your post that prompted my comment.
The verse I posted in no contradicts Jesus nor was it presented in a deceptive manner. I only presented the voice of God. The relative postings of other FReepers will have to stand or fall on their own merit.
Here is what you prefaced your snippet with:
All future sins are not reconciled by declaring our Salvation or final judgment would not await any of us. Your interpretation is not substantiated by Scripture or the teachings of the Church from the first Pentecost until today. Indeed, it is Jesus who saves us, but it is we who damn ourselves. "The root of sin is in the heart of man, in our free will. To the eyes of faith no evil is graver than sin and nothing has worse consequences for sinners themselves, for the Church, and for the whole world. We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him, but we cannot love God if we choose to gravely sin against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves. All are called to Salvation and sufficient Grace exists for the Salvation of all, yet all are not saved. To gain Salvation we must cooperate with Grace. Failure, in our thoughts and our words, in what we do and what we fail to to to affirm God and cooperate with His Grace is a sin. Sin is a conscious choice. To choose deliberately, both knowingly it and willingly, something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Sin and the burden of its consequences constantly threaten the gift of unity. Unrepented, it brings eternal death. (Post 221 to Metmom)
Your use of the I John 3:15 was to prove your contention that, as you said, "uprepented sin brings eternal death" and also your Church's teachings about what "cooperating with grace" means. No matter how you slice it, the gospel of the grace of God means that it is by faith in Christ that we are redeemed from the penalty of our sin. His shed blood was the payment God accepted and, when we receive him through faith, we are justified and born again into the family of God. This is the lesson the Apostle John, in his epistle I John, was teaching to believers and admonishing them about living lives of victory over sin. He said, "See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!" The rest of that chapter is certainly speaking about loving each other and being willing to sacrifice for one another as Christ did for us, but he does not imply that those who are still learning this are somehow in danger of losing their salvation. That is something that false gospels teach - that man must earn his salvation by his deeds rather than by grace through faith.
(side note: I have never before seen a Protestant use the Catholic tactic of posting an entire chapter to refute a verse or two.....well done! Now we just have to work on your conclusions)
Now, see, you've just confirmed what I have suspected all along - you must not read the comments from "Protestants". :o)
It’s either/or, it can’t be both.
If it’s Christ, works aren’t needed.
If it’s works, Christ isn’t needed.
I’ll take my chances with Christ. His righteousness imputed to me beats any feeble attempts I make on my own.
That way, even if I were judged by works, since Christ’s works and righteousness have been credited to my account, I’m good to go. I’m making it.
That's not what Paul says. He says future Judgement.
Did someone rip Chapter 3 out of your bible???
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
You might need to consider something.
Says who? The Faith has always been and.
If it’s Christ, works aren’t needed. If it’s works, Christ isn’t needed.
That's not the Faith. Faith without works is dead.
I’ll take my chances with Christ. His righteousness imputed to me beats any feeble attempts I make on my own.
You want to play chicken with your salvation? Neat idea. I wouldn't do that, myself.
That way, even if I were judged by works, since Christ’s works and righteousness have been credited to my account, I’m good to go. I’m making it.
The god in the mirror has affirmed your salvation.
Yes, Col 2:16, you are correct, Cor was a typo.
We “Do this in remembrance of me” regularly, usually monthly.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Christianity without Christ is a fascinating idea. But this does not mean what you mean it to say.
Scrutinizing again with that ‘prove to me’ attitude with condemnation. No one can teach an unteachable spirit and there is nothing to consider.
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