Posted on 03/11/2012 4:27:55 PM PDT by Heart-Rest
While there are what I would consider reasonable concerns that might cause one to choose other than the Catholic Church, I don’t consider transubstantiation to be one of those reasonable concerns.
To the extent that the Catholic Church teaches the worship of Mary, that would be a valid reason for rejecting the Catholic Church or a group of Catholics who would be teaching Mariology wrongly.
I am convinced that many Catholics evidence little understanding of the distinction between reverence and worship. I'm also convinced that the dividing line between reverence and worship is a very thin line when publicly practiced.
Therefore, in my opinion, Catholicism has a huge responsibility to broadly explain the distinction between reverence and worship, and they also have a responsibility to go to great lengths in any public setting not to blur any distinction between reverence and worship.
Any group worshipping anyone but the Triune God is wrong, and that should be rejected.
There is only one I AM.
Refer to my comments on worship of Mary. The same applies to statues, icons, and paintings...relics...any created thing.
**Then Peter stepped forward and without consulting the others said; “You are the Christ, the son of the living God.”.**
Andrew was pretty sure before Peter:
“..Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. He findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.’ John 1:40,41.
Here’s a few thoughts to evaluate, since you’re eager to defend your traditions:
A brief example of the confusion trinitarian ‘creeds’ display is shown in the following numbered lines from a posting of the so-called ‘Athanasian Creed’:
**10. The Father is eternal: the Son eternal: the Holy Spirit eternal.
22. The Son is of the Father alone: not made; nor created; but begotten.**
Eternal=begotten??
The following statement is contradictory to the verse which follows it.
**25. And in this Trinity none is before or after another: none is greater or less than another.**
“..I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” John 14:28
And this:
**12. As also there are not three uncreated: nor three immeasurable: but one uncreated, and one immeasurable.**
??
So there are TWO that ARE created, and TWO that ARE measurable??
More confusion:
**13. So likewise the Father is almighty: the Son almighty: and the Holy Spirit almighty.**
If one is almighty, there is no need for the others. If one needs the others, that one is not almighty.
And these next ones........?????????????
17. So the Father is Lord: the Son Lord: and the Holy Spirit Lord.
18. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord:
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there are three Gods, or three Lords.
?????????
Tell me, now who is it that is the author of confusion?
How does a ‘trinitarian’ explain this: “But of that day and hour knoweth....my Father only” (the ‘2nd and 3rd persons of God’ don’t know??)?
Did the Son of God inherit his name ‘Jesus’? Yes. Jn 5:43 and Heb. 1:4
Why is the phrase ‘Son of God’ found many times in scripture, but the phrase ‘God the Son’ is found nowhere in scripture?
God is Christ, because of the Father dwelling in him, which is undeniable fact. Most notably in John chapters 5, 8, 10, 14, 15, and 16, Jesus Christ spoke a great deal about ‘the Father’ in him, teaching him all things, telling him what to say, doing the ‘works’, etc. When speaking of God dwelling in himself, the Christ calls him the Father, not the Holy Ghost. (As we know, the Holy Ghost is “..the Comforter..which PROCEEDETH FROM the Father..”. John 15:26)
IN those chapters are some very clear claims by the Christ:
John 5:19 “..the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..” The Man that God SENT (God doesn’t need to be sent anywhere, he’s already omnipresent) received instruction on EVERYTHING. God doesn’t need instruction on anything, for he knows ALL things.
John 5:26 “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he GIVEN to the SON to have life in himself.” God can’t be given anything he doesn’t already have. God is the giver of life, not the receiver.
John 5:27 “And hath GIVEN him (the SON) AUTHORITY to execute judgement also, because he is the Son of man.” God is the GIVER of authority, not the receiver.
John 6:37 “All that the Father hath GIVEN me shall come to me..”.
John 8:28 “..as my Father hath TAUGHT me, I speak these things.”
John 10:27-30 “My sheep hear my voice.... My Father, which GAVE them me is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one (by now you should see the flow of power consistantly coming from the Father to the Son)
John 14 is the ‘heavy iron’ of this revelation of the Godhead. “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye KNOW him. and have SEEN him.......he that hath SEEN me hath SEEN the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the WORDS (REMEMBER JOHN 1:1??) that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that DWELLETH IN ME, he doeth the works.” vss 6-10.
Even trinitarians believe that Jesus Christ has two natures: human (mind, soul, and body), and divine. I, and those like minded, believe that the Father IN Christ is the source of all things divine (remember, the Holy Ghost PROCEEDETH from the Father as well).
**Any group worshipping anyone but the Triune God is wrong, and that should be rejected.
There is only one I AM.**
Triune means ‘three’, right? Then you define God in the singular ‘one I AM’.
ping to 364. maybe you can analyze some of those questions I asked him, and asked others before as well.
Lord bless
The way the Catholic Church is organized into a hierarchy it might be difficult to reject a local church and not the Catholic Church altogether.
Either way, the bottom line is that I Corinthians 5 is not just a suggestion.
The point is that we who have "ears to hear" know the words of God when we "hear" (or read) them.
Psalms 12:6-7 gives God the glory for preserving His own words:
So, we disagree then. Carry on in the faith. I’ll do likewise. :-)
I would gladly respond to your concerns regarding the creedal understanding of the Trinity. However, the post you have made is full of questions. Let’s just start with one question at a time.
Can you restate what you consider the foremost question that you have? I have been dealing one question at a time with the issues presented in this basic article. It’s just my way of keeping posts fairly concise and followable. Thanks, Zuriel.
Thanks for that. I have no problem with other Chrisian faiths, but never understood those that failed to see a huge problem with Christians bashing other Christians. There is something so blatantly wrong and opposed to Christianity in doing so, especially from church leaders. I have NEVER heard a Catholic priest speak even disrespespectfully about other Jewish or Christian fairhs.
Converts are the best Catholics. We cradle Catholics don’t even know how to defend ourselves. Who knew we would grow up in a world where other Christians were among our adversaries? All these attacks will certainly make us stronger, I have had to learn a lot about my faith. There were admittedly too many things that I understood only intuitively and took for granted, such as the amazing sacraments, for one.
It’s not about what I can do. It’s about what He has already done. I screw up everyday, but I put my faith and trust in Jesus and continue each day to cultivate my relationship with Him. When the Father looks at me, He sees me wrapped up in Jesus’ righteousness.
I know the whole communion thing (which we believe Jesus said that He had been speaking figuratively about - John 16) is another area where there is debate. I’m curious if, after taking Communion, you’ve ever gotten hungry again later.
John 6:31-35
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
Sure seems to be a figure of speech indicating a spiritual truth instead something literal and physical.
How can you tell someone who has been abused by the Church that if they don’t submit to the teachings of an institution whose members have abused them, they are going to hell? You have to forget all that was done and be one of us, or the abuse will get much worse.
The United States doesn’t abuse people and then tell them “become one of us or it’s going to get much worse for you”.
I’ve seen you post this several times. Very cute. Also, very condescending.
In the Old Testament, God spoke through the Prophets.
In the Gospels, God spoke with Jesus.
In the church age, God speaks through the Holy Spirit through our relationship with Him.
Your continuous posting of the picture only shows your horrible attitude towards those of us with a relationship with Christ. At least get a new picture. I expect the snarky attitude to remain, though.
I love how the “Catholics” are attacked by other Christians, when it’s the Catholics who say everyone else is going to hell. Never mind the amount of Protestants that smuggle Bibles into the underground church in China or the Middle East, or who spend their summers on mission trips to 3rd world countries, or who help out in their local food pantries. They are still going to hell. If you don’t observe our rituals, you’re a goner. You’re just so persecuted.
-——Catholics who say everyone else is going to hell.-——
‘Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel
of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a
sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his
will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -
those too may achieve eternal salvation.’” (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 847)
Much can be said on the subject of the Church’s position regarding non-Catholics and non-Catholic Christians. The previous paragraph regards the salvation of non-Catholics.
Any who do are equally as clueless those gullible enough to believe such nonsense is a tenet of Catholicism
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