To My "Bible Only" Christian Brothers and Sisters, From A Catholic Convert [a humble vanity]

[Heart-Rest]

“Church” means “body of believers”. Check out a Greek Lexicon.

Church is an English word.    It has a number of possible meanings.    The Church Jesus built was built on Peter, exactly as Jesus himself said. (See Matthew 16:18)

[cuban leaf]

—Are you saying that the Archangel Gabriel spoke King James English to a 14 year old Hebrew girl in 1st century Nazareth or do you allow for some flexibility in the actual words used as recited in the Ave Maria—

I use various English translations, but if there is a serious disagreement, I go to the Hebrew and Greek Lexicons. For our purposes here it has not been necessary to post it’s contents. Yet.

[Heart-Rest]

Thanks.

[cuban leaf]

—
Church is an English word. It has a number of possible meanings. —

Correct. That is why I said “Check out a Greek Lexicon.”

[Heart-Rest]

I wasn’t saying all “Bible Only” Christians are anti-Catholic, but that I used to be a “Bible Only” Christian and I was also an anti-Catholic, like many “Bible Only” Christians are.

Um, that is essentially what you said in your vanity. In addition, you lumped Bible only Christians who you claim are anti-Catholics in with the likes of obama and maher.

I said "many", not "all".

[cuban leaf]

The word for "church" used in Matthew 16 is ἐκκλησία. and it is used to mean, in the Bible: 1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly -a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating -b) the assembly of the Israelites -c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously -d) in a Christian sense: --1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting --2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake --3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body --4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth --5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

[Country Gal]

John Chapter 17, beginning with verse 25 explains a lot. Jesus spoke figuratively.

[Heart-Rest]

:-)    Thanks!

[metmom]

I don’t need Mary in there to muck it up.

if I can convince my best friends' mom to put in a good word for me, what's to lose??

Put in a good word for you with whom? Your best friend? Not much of a friend if you need his mom to influence him in your favor.

[what's up]

As I mentioned a couple of times on this thread, every book is written either by an apostle or someone closely related to an apostle. Luke is no exception.

[JSDude1]

Um, no, your communion is not literally his body.

[editor-surveyor]

Catholicism is the primary church invented by men, doing all things contrary to Christ’s inbstructions in Matthew.

Yes, catholics do believe that they know better than Christ.

[Heart-Rest]

I have three Biblical Greek-English Dictionaries (including "Strong's"), and they all show "church" as one of the translations, and that is also obviously what the translators of most of the English Translations of the Bible chose to use as the most accurate, precise translation of that word in those references, as I stated in my original post.

(For an online example, check out this definition at    http://www.greek-dictionary.net/ekklēsia    which contains the following translation.)

Greek transliteration: ekklēsia
Transliteration (simplified): ekklesia
Strong's number: 1577
GK number: 1711
Frequency in New Testament: 114
Morphology of Biblical Greek tag: n-1a
Gloss: church, congregation, assembly; ...

[Natural Law]

"That is why I said “Check out a Greek Lexicon.”

No Greek Lexicon is infallible or inerrant. This is one example because they tend to suggest that ancient languages had no etymology. Ekklesia is just such a word.

The usage and symbolism of the word is deeply embedded within Greek culture and would have been known to the Apostles, Disciples and Early Church Fathers. In its original usage it was the term used to assemble or call out the army. It later was extended to the assembly of the voters or electorate. This was not a general call, but a specific call to a very limited number of persons (those males over 18 who had served at least 2 years in defense of the city) and for a very specific purpose. A proper translation is convocation.

In the usage within the New Testament it is not a general call to a a body of believers, but a reference to a convocation with a hierarchy and a specific purpose. Jesus first formed His ekklesia from among the disciples, these were his Apostles with Him at the head. He later build His Church upon St. Peter with Himself as the chief architect.

[Natural Law]

"Um, no, your communion is not literally his body."

I, along with my Church, disagree.

[terycarl]

Satan loves to twist God’s words. He did it with Eve and he did it with Jesus (40 days in the wilderness). And the Hail Mary does that with the addition of “pray for us sinners...”.

is that anything like "for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory....added onto the Lord's Prayer????

[Country Gal]

Assuming by Epiousios you’re meaning “for the approaching day”, that would not make any sense. He was speaking in the past tense. “Though I’ve been speaking figureatively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father”.

[cuban leaf]

Heh, heh. ;-)

I forgot to tell you where I was getting it. Blueletterbible.org.

[Natural Law]

"Assuming by Epiousios you’re meaning “for the approaching day”..."

I am referring to Epiousios as the supersubstantial bread, the Eucharist. This word is used nowhere else in Scripture, except by Jesus. This usage was prevalent ("ho artos hēmōn ho epiousios") with the early Christians even before the Gospels were written. St. Jerome, no stranger to Greek translated it as supersubstantial bread indicating the Holy Nature of the bread.

To suggest otherwise implies that the writers of the Gospels engaged in a false “theologizing” of a word intended only to convey a straightforward earthly sense.

[cuban leaf]

We’re saying the same thing but focusing on different things.

You see a car and see an engine. I see a car and see a drivetrain. We’re both right.

The church IS the body of believers. And it has a hierarchical form of a sort. Paul evern refers to it (what kind of person can be a deacon, etc. But the hierarchy is only an attribute of the church.

I’m working with some relational databases right now. To use it as an analogy, the database is the “body of believers”. The interconnectivity (keys, indexes, information used to create universes, etc.) could be the hierarchy. But the database itself is the body of believers, and keys and indexes are also individual data elements (believers).

The hiearchy is a way of “arranging” them, but the individual elements (believers) are what make up the church.

And the analogy is of course not perfect, since believers have a direct and personal relationship with Jesus. That said, you need some sort of hierarchy to schedule bingo games, picnics and handle the openly homosexual music director.