Posted on 12/23/2011 8:28:19 PM PST by bibletruth
Good point.
1 Corinthians 15:29-30
29Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them?
30Why also are we in danger every hour?
Ver. 29. Who are baptized for the dead.[1] He still brings other proofs of the resurrection. This is a hard place, and the words are differently expounded. 1. Several late interpreters understand a metaphorical baptism, and that to be baptized for the dead, is to undertake self-denials, mortifications, and works of penance, in hopes of a happy resurrection; and this exposition agrees with what follows, of being exposed to dangers every hour, of dying daily, &c. But if this had been the apostle's meaning, he would rather have said, Who baptize themselves. Besides, this exposition is not so much as mentioned in any of the ancient interpreters.
2. Some think that St. Paul tells the Corinthians that they ought not to question the resurrection of the dead, who had a custom among them, if any one died without baptism, to baptize another that was living for him; and this they did, fancying that such a baptism would be profitable to the dead person, in order to a happy resurrection. Tertullian mentions this custom in one or two places, and also St. Chrysostom on this place. But it does not seem probable that St. Paul would bring any argument of the resurrection from a custom which he himself could not approve, nor was ever approved in the Church.
3. St. Chrysostom and the Greek interpreters, who generally follow him, expound these words, who are baptized for the dead, as if it were the same as to say, who receive baptism with hopes that they themselves, and all the dead, will rise again; and therefore make a profession, when they are baptized, that they believe the resurrection. So that St. Paul here brings this proof among others, that they who have been made Christians, and continue Christians, cannot call in question the resurrection, which they professed to believe in their creed at their baptism, the creed being always repeated before they were baptized.
4. Others, by being baptized for the dead, understand those who begged and called for baptism when they were in danger of death, and would by no means go out of this world without being baptized, hoping thereby to have a happy resurrection of their bodies; so that to be baptized for the dead is the same as on the account of the state of the dead, which they were entering into. See St. Epiphanius, hær. viii. p. 114. Edit Petavii. (Witham) Some think the apostle here alludes to a ceremony then in use: but others, more probably, to the prayers and penitential labours performed by the primitive Christians for the souls of the faithful departed: or to the baptism of afflictions and sufferings undergone for sinners spiritually dead. (Challoner)
Nope, he wouldn't,Christ certainly had the authority to completely forgive sin as He did frequently in the bible. A Catholic believes that because we are all sinners, there is a method, called the Sacrament of Reconciliation which enables us to confess (admit) our sins to God, through a priest (whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them) which, accompanied by perfect contrition, frees us from any further responsibility for them. Purgatory is for less than perfect contrition, which most of are guilty of, and for unconfessed minor (venial) sins, and perhaps overlooked shortcomings which we all have. Catholics believe that to enter the kingdom of God, perfection is necessary. The "good" thief was promised, by Christ, that they would be together in paradise that day....they were...Christ pardoned any and all penaalties which the man might have faced. He can do that, He does do that, but not always, lest we lose our sense of responsibility for our own behavior. You cannot do anything you please, and just figure "oh well, Christ covered my sorry butt so I'm not responsible for my actions"....I don't think so!!
Certainly don't need any of that since Jesus said "it is finished" and the veil of the temple was torn in two. But enjoy yourself!
sure they are, and yes it does.....see the difference between Catholics and Protestants????
Smile. Thank you.
“Please, look to the Church for the explanation of ‘Today you will be with me in Paradise.’”
Um...Why would I look to the (Catholic) Church when I’m not a Catholic? I already have the Bible, which is the literal Word of God. I don’t have need for a supplement.
Further, you keep saying that Purgatory is somehow biblical, and to check it out on the internet. I find your reluctance to give us the actual Scriptural support rather strange. I’ve studied the Bible for a number of years, and I’ve never seen Purgatory anywhere there. None of the early Apostles ever mention such a place. The Apostle Paul talked about absent from the body being present with the Lord. He wrote like 14 epistles, you’d think SOMEWHERE he would have mentioned this intermediary place called Purgatory.
And as for being a “suburb” of Heaven-I’ve never heard it put that way before. I was a Catholic the first 41 years of my life, and growing up in Catholic school, the nuns always taught us that Purgatory was a place with suffering similar to Hell. The only difference being it was temporary and not permanent. They also taught us that pretty much everybody had to spend some time there.
Obviously you are firmly committed to your belief system and I’m not gonna change your mind, so if you want to go on believing in everything the supposedly “infallible” Church tells you, that’s fine. I’ll stick to what the Bible says. And from what I read, I’m already justified by faith (Romans 5:1) and have no further need for purification, cause Christ paid it all.
Does that mean we can abuse this grace, as Apostle Paul said “God forbid!” To the contrary, those who think they can use Christianity as fire insurance to live any way they want were probably never saved in the first place. I think spiritual growth (good works) happens with every true believer. God is continually molding us more into the people He wants us to be.
Will we reach perfection this side of Heaven? No, and neither did Jesus’ mother Mary, the Apostle Paul, or any of the other saints. No human other than Christ has ever lived a sinless life. All sin and fall short of His glory (Rom 3:23). We all need a Savior, even Mary acknowledged this fact (Luke 1:47).
And Christ being the only perfect human being was the only one qualified to shed His blood for our sins. Which is why the formula for salvation is really quite simple; confess with your mouth ‘Jesus is Lord’ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you are saved (Rom 10:9).
No need for any other mediators. No need to pray to dead human beings, no need to spend time in some phantom suburb of Heaven. If we are truly born again, then when we die (or if the Lord comes in our lifetime),we go straight to be with Him. End of story.
Please read my post #117. Purgatory is a purification to be Holy as God. Purgatory is different from Hell. I heard a Priest on television use the term ‘suburb’ to explain that Purgatory is NOT a ‘second chance.’ The term Trinity is not in scripture nor is the word Bible. Scripture has passages that describe the purification that occurs in Purgatory.
Humility is a gift of the Holy Spirit that enables a person to realize they are not as Perfect as Jesus Christ. In God's Blessings, we that cling to an attachment to sin can be purified in Heaven.
I've heard a Bishop a number of times describe Baptism as being ‘Born Again.’ The Catholic Church says Baptism can be obtained by water, or blood, or by desire. There is a Perfect description of being ‘Born Again’ in Baptism in the Gospels. Jesus Christ is Baptized in the River Jordan & the Holy Spirit descends on Him like a Dove.
May God Bless you & your family. I'll pray for you in my Rosary prayer. I know you already know Catholic teaching as you attended Catholic Schools. The Church doors are always open & the Eucharist is real.
Either extreme ignorance or just a plain malicious lie - either way, learn your nickname; you'll do much better in life.
You're welcome.
And Jesus having the keys to the gates of Hell, unlocked the gates and took those folks to heaven with him...
From then on, the gates of Hell would not prevail against the church...No one now goes to Abraham's Bosom...The gates are wide open...Nothing to hold anyone in...
These are the gates of Hell spoken of in Matt. 16...They are not some twisted, perverted idea that error will never enter into your religion...They are real gates...
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
What are the options???
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Was Jesus claiming that he would make the statement today, maybe because he would be dead tomorrow and couldn't converse with the thief since the thief would be dead also???
Did Jesus lay in his tomb for a couple of days before heading to paradise or did he immediately go there??? Same with the thief who died that day...Where'd he go if he didn't go to Paradise that day??? Did he go to hell or just lay in the grave til he went to paradise, and then to heaven???
Jesus wasn't in Paradise very long so neither was the thief...Certainly couldn't have been a purgatory...
And everyone was let out of Paradise at the same time...No purgatory...
I chose to believe it as it's written...It's the only way it will fit with the rest of scripture...
Absolutely not...There's not a verse there that claims we will be purifed at that time...The fact is, we are already purified when we reach that judgment...
It is in fact one of those passages where the Protestant myth-making really hits the fan. There is no passage that invited people to heaven dirty as they are.
Who doesn't know that??? The big difference is that your religion teaches you that you can clean yourself...
But real Christians know they can only be fully cleansed by God...
“May God Bless you & your family. I’ll pray for you in my Rosary prayer. I know you already know Catholic teaching as you attended Catholic Schools. The Church doors are always open & the Eucharist is real.”
Well gghd, I must say you are a worthy defender of Catholicism. You do it much better than most priests/bishops/nuns I ever encountered. I appreciate your prayers for my family, and I will pray for yours as well. Have a Merry Christmas and may God bless you and your family in every way in 2012 and beyond.
Jesus wasn’t resurrected until the third day and his sacrifice wasn’t offered on God’s altar until returning to heaven after his resurrection.
How could the thief go to paradise before then? Acts 2:31 says Jesus went into Hades awaiting resurrection.
I did dig deeper much deeper, I am a revert to the Catholic Church. I tired desperately to deny her truth, I left for a long time and began to study and the more I studied the more I was drawn to the Catholic Church. I suggest YOU dig deeper. Study the Early Church Fathers find out what they taught what they learned from the apostles and what they beleived basd on the teaching of the apostles for several hundr3ed years before the Catholic Curch even ordered the canon of scripture.
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