Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
They may not know they are in error. Look at my last two posts (675 & 680). The version they use is not like any other version I can find. Is it because the scripture their church has them use is doctored? It looks like it to me.
Faith is certainly the requirement, however, whent he process of sorting out who is saved and who is condemned, it is done according to people's works of love.
[31] And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
(matthew 25)
That is becasue, as the scripture teaches,
[17] So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. [18] But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. [19] Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? [25] And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?
[26] For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.
(James 2)
Protestantism is a damnable and heretical sect for that reason more that for what they "think" about the Purgatory, by the way.
Hopefully by now you've realized that you are mixing two separate passages. Matthew 7 speaks about those who Jesus said he never knew - and they WERE the ones who were counting on all the mighty works they did in his name. Whereas, Matthew 25 talks about the last judgment where sheep and goats are separated. I hope you didn't miss the point that those being judged were ALREADY sheep or goats and their works did not determine that.
Why didn’t you leave that stuff in the third grade?
Thanks, well said.
You’re right, I did mix up two passages. Cynical Bear’s post 584 got me thrown off. Here it is:
It is what you understanding of what faith is that causes dependence on works. Even Devils and Demons have faith that God exists. They also encourage people to do good works to deceive those who fall for it to think it’s they (the people who are doing the good works) who are good. An example of what the faith that saves means one could compare faith in the dollar. If you truly have faith in the dollar you will hold on to that dollar with faith that it will buy the things you want. If you do not have “faith” in the dollar you will exchange that dollar for something you think will retain value to purchase things you want or need such as gold for instance.
Faith that saves is consistent, ongoing reliance on Jesus as our salvation. What that faith produces are actions that stem from a changed heart. Those actions are proof or evidence that our faith is real. Dependence on works for salvation proves that we did not have faith that the sacrifice of Jesus was sufficient for our salvation. On the other hand, if we don’t have the actions described, it proves that what faith we had wasn’t real.
Thanks for the correction. From now on, I’ll scrutinize his posts more carefully, for just such a possibility, now that I know he does that..
That has been discussed ad nausea already. The goats Jesus was talking to thought they had done good works and earned salvation. The sheep already had their salvation and were rewarded for service to Him.
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Romans 4:1-12 1What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
How do you know your works are better than “filthy rags”?
Isn’t it common courtesy that when you reference someone you ping them?
Srue it is. If you had shown any it would have been so surprising I woud have remembered it, and pinged you.
Your post is the final word in this argument on faith and works. I don’t see how the soteriology could be made any clearer.
It emphasizes too some Protestants error in creating a wall between faith and works, often even approaching an odd criticism of all works.
What a lousy excuse.
Yes. In verse 6.
Look up 2 Tim. 2:15. What does their version say?
The purifying fire is a necessity for those whose works contain stubble. Read the scripture: "he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." The implication is clear that the fire enables his entry into heaven. However, it is true that both kinds enter heaven eventually.
Instead this is speaking about reward for service, for those who are already in Heaven.
No because the entrance into heaven "he is saved" does not occure till he has gone through the purifying fire "saved as if by fire".
it best “speaks” of in context and by typology is converts
That may be one example of "man's work", but the passage is written intentionally in the broadest of terms: "every man's work", with "every" repeated four times and "any" also four times.
if was character defects that were lost in order to gain entrance to Heaven, that being the Reward, then those whose works were consumed would receive the reward, rather than being saved even though those they built the church with failed.
Sorry, I cannot parse the meaning of this.
The point is what the judgment is for, the reward being entrance into Heaven or crowns to greater glorify God with
It is clear from verses 14 and 15 that both kinds enter heaven (the damned ones are not in focus at all, as the presumtion is that the works of either kind are done on the solid foundation of faith, v.12), but one survives the fire unscathed and with a reward and the other loses the accumulated imperfections and sees no particular reward.
That’s not just a little off..that is completely the opposite of what is actually said. The fact that this Scripture is of major importance in understanding Christ’s finished work, this is criminal.
I don’t know what version they use? Their version sure says different things than all of the others that’s for sure. I need to find what they use. I’ll keep looking. Whatever they use it sure seems it changes the meaning to match the RCC propaganda.
I know, but the issue was consuming the whole conversation, and the fact that the Catechism sees the scripture in question as a reference to the Purgatory closes the matter. On a thread about internal Catholic issues of authority it would have been a meaningful conversation but not here.
Yes, these 1-11 are my posts and I stand by all of them. Observe, too, that I keep referring to the scripture while you are building free-satnding constructs that deviate from the scripture in focus. That I find typical of Protestant disinterest in discussing the scripture unless it, on occasion, fits their theological positions.
all you posted in response was to reduce Purgatory to “purification preceding the entry into Heaven,” for some, (“That is all the Purgatory is”), while as i have argued, that it is only one aspect needed to make 1Cor. 3 refer to being a purification commencing at death in order to enter heaven.
If I omitted "at death in order to enter heaven", that was inadvertent. As my previous post should have shown, if nothing I posted before, 1 Cor. 3 refers both to a necessity of purification and the fact that is is occuring at the point of death, when the lifelong work of the believer is complete.
The Church fathers and the Holy Tradition are indeed necessary in order to understand the scripture, but on this topic the scriptural support for the purgatory is clear and the Protestants obfuscate it. Same of the fantasy of salvation by faith alone or the rule of faith by the Bible alone. There are things where we rely on Tradition in a great part, but not on these fundamental Protestant heresies.
>>>>this is criminal.
Quick, call the sheriff.
So the RCC takes out the second commandment and rearranges other parts of scripture to better match their propaganda? Unbelievable! No wonder Catholics don’t understand when we use scripture.
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