Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
HOow mature are you anyway?
Manipulating others? Using the posts of those who follow wrong doctrine to point out error is manipulating others? Jesus used the words of the Pharasees often to point out error. We just do the same thing here.
Go read through his last page full of posts. That will give you an idea.
Tell me then, if Purgatory is such a vital and necessary part of our transition into Heaven, why pray for those undergoing it? Why ask for their comfort, their expedited processing, their release from it? Why tell people that prayers to Mary - who is claimed to be the Queen over Purgatory - gain her merciful acts to free the souls still there? If, as you say, this place is only a necessary, final step to glory, why should there be anything said, done or paid to hurry the process up? Why rush perfecting?
Amen! Beautifully said. Thank you.
What I AM saying is that posting to an individual does TWO things. It’s commenting on their post and it’s there for anyone who is interested to read. It’s not just TO that person, it’s FOR anyone who reads it. We all know each other pretty well by now. We pretty well know who has cast their lot where. It’s about those who aren’t certain. Who are searching. And who want to know what God’s Word says, what the RCC says, and if they are in agreement. It is hardly dishonest. It is comparing Scripture with teachings, and letting God’s Word and the Holy Spirit do with the reader what He will.
Let's just say we're not the first to fight this battle. I think you are right that at least the finer points will have to wait for the beatific vision.
The big hairy concepts are
Also, I think you over-stated our opposition to "blessed assurance."(I think maybe we overstate it too, maybe.) When I cite Dominic and Terese of Lisieux, I don't mean that those destined to be canonized are the only sort who can enjoy the blessed assurance.
If the proposition to be debated is "Whether Catholics think no one can know he's going to heaven?" I think I've done my job if I can adduce one or two people who talked like they knew and did not get accused of anything.
BUT, just as we observe "All saints" in a few days, because we believe there are PLENTY of saints who are not known to us, so I think, the gift of blessed assurance is granted to many more than to just a couple of famous 'greats'.
It occurs to me that part of OUR problem (if it's a problem) is what I think of as the "Hosannah Rhetoric".
Look at the Mass: The priest does not say: Shuh-ZAYam, We done 'er agin!! He asks. He begs. And he asks for "some small share" of grace. Sure, he partakes and distributes in evident confidence that God has indeed done 'er agin, and so we receive. We ACT in confidence while we beg like beggars, for such we are.
So, maybe, with blessed assurance. (The Mass is central to Catholic life, piety, and thought in a way that is dauntingly hard to express to someone who does not live it.) Just as we are confident that God will do what (we think) he promised as regards the Eucharist, so also I put all my trust in God and His deep and, if I may say so, resilient mercy. He will do, as He always has done, ALL for my benefit. ("He does all for each," says Lewis in a wonderful account of Divine Providence.)
Now imagine the kid who goes to his father and says, "Dad, you know and I know that you're going to give me the money I'm asking for after I've argued and begged and promised for a while. So why don;'t you save us both a lot of time and give it to me now?"
Even if he KNOWS, it is indecent to assume, to adopt that attitude.
SO I think part of our reticence on this matter is more an aesthetic sense than a strict theological sense. It's just TACKY to say, "Oh yeah, I'm cool." We will remain like baby birds squawking with out mouths open for food,and our chief rhetoric will be that of supplication, though we are confident we will not be refused.
(Hosannah, though a cheer and little else, literally is a plea to be saved.)
I'm not saying good or bad. I'm just trying to convey the savor of it.
Look: my tears at Corpus Christi are not tears of fear. They are tears of release, of happiness that so great a need in me is met with so overwhelmingly generous a response. It is my part to beg,and His to grant. And I am happy to beg. Poverty is fun.
To the Catholics I pinged: I did not ping you to pile on boatbums but to ask if you think this is more or less okay.
There's at least one doctoral dissertation waiting on the influence of piety on theology. Lex orandi, lex credendi and all that.
I have. I can figure mental age.
So then why purgatory?
If this doesn’t remind people of fourth grade, nothing will! ;o)
In any event, be careful, "be sober, be vigilant for our adversary walketh about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, whom resist steadfast in the faith."
God will win. We don't need to worry about that. He HAS won. So we can be generous and gentle with one another.
Amen! Well stated. I might add that using scripture to show where the error of the CC is it gives those who read a source.
And they never know if they have done enough to be saved... everyday is what do i need to do today? go to mass? go to confession? do some 'works of mercy"... purgatory will be a relief..
Grace is getting WHAT YOU DO NOT DESERVE... if it is earned it is not grace..it is wages due...making God your debtor...
Because God is generous and gracious and wants us to be happy! Why else?
How silly!!!!and .not very theological..
Everyone just wishes they could be as clever as you.
Then please accept my apology. That is what the bottom line means, to me. And yes, God WILL win. And indeed, has ALREADY WON. It’s those pesky skirmishes that get in the way!
I guess that's supposed to be a bad thing now. How come you've never criticized our resident possessed 60 year old who's in real need of an exorcist before?
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