Posted on 10/19/2011 5:21:41 PM PDT by wmfights
Emotional blackmail and moral high-horses are the trademark of the socialist, not the conservative.
Look, I'm not removed from this discussion. I have quite a few Hispanic friends. Some aren't entirely legal. My daughter's best friend is from Mexico and was born here. Her parents are really nice folks who may or may not be here legally. I've never asked, nor do I intend to. I treat them as the Torah commands.
That doesn't mean that I support politicians who ignore the existing immigration laws--nor does it mean that I have to ignore the inherant danger of extending benefits to the children of illegals, that being that it encourages more illegal immigration.
I see no inherant difference between your argument and the one that conservatives are unfeeling monsters for wanting to roll back the welfare state: "Think of the children!"
By the same token, I am not heartless to the plight of the children of illegals that were born here. You're right that by not enforcing the laws, our own government created this lawless situation. That's why this is not a simple issue.
So again, both of you are wrong to claim that the Bible absolutely backs you up. And if you disagree with that, please answer my question about David.
Shalom
The Children of illegals who are born here are entitled to every right and privilege accorded to children of Citizens. That is not the issue my FRiend.
The Texas Dream Act gives the children of illegal aliens who were brought here as small children the same right to an in-state tuition that we give to the children of illegal aliens who were born here. It still does not give them the right to drive a car or get a job.
If anything we should have compassion for those children because they are sojourners without a country to return to.
I am quite surprised by your attitude and Uriel's. You guys claim to be numbered among the Israelites, but the Israelites have been booted from every country they ever moved to and treated like chattel in their own land. The Jews have never been welcome in any country except America and even here they have faced hardships. One would think that if you number yourself among the Jews that you would have compassion in spades for children in America who have no legal standing in this country and no country to return to.
They are in effect wanderers in the wilderness without Manna. Only their plight will not end until the laws are changed or they are deported to some country they have never known.
I don't care if the Texas Dream Act was inspired by a democrat or a republican. It was the right thing to do. It was not, as your FRiend Uriel suggests "THEFT". It was an act of Christian Charity. The people of the State of Texas enacted this law. It is a just law. It treats these children as God would have his followers treat them. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Sorry. Typo. (born/brought . . . bleh)
If anything we should have compassion for those children because they are sojourners without a country to return to.
a) That doesn't answer my objection, and b) did something happen to Mexico when I wasn't looking? It's still showing up on Google maps.
Yes, I know its a hellhole there. But letting the problems spill over the border helps neither of us.
You guys claim to be numbered among the Israelites, but the Israelites have been booted from every country they ever moved to and treated like chattel in their own land.
Actually, that's one of the reasons I'm wary about precedents: The same sorts of arguments are being used to push Israel into an indefensible position and to claim a right of return.
As far as the historical plight of the Jews, we literally had no country of our own, nowhere to go. That's not the case here--though again, I'm not saying, "Kick them all out." I'm just acknowledging being able to see both points of view and calling for some Christian charity and civility on the board.
I could write more, but I've gotta run. Hopefully I'll be able to check in tomorrow.
Shalom
As I have read through the responses of Marlowe, Uriel, WmFights and you, Buggman, I have been looking toward what the bible actually says. I believe Marlowe’s responses have most logically aligned with scripture.
1. I like Buggman’s recognition that accepting the aliens among us does not mean we can not have and enforce immigration laws.
2. I like P-Marlowes interpretation that says the alien among us must be treated as native born. That aligns with the scripture that pretty well says literally the same thing.
3. Marlowe seems most consistent with the Christian message of compassion, and Uriel hasn’t been able to point to a codified law that Perry has broken that proves he has stolen something.
4. I don’t want political wrangling to determine my interpretation of the Levitical passage. The intensity around this discussion, though, makes me think such intensity would have caused the Lord to guide us through scripture.
5. I’m going to come down on the side of a literal interpretation of that particular verse.
LOL, all good points.
I'm going to Panama next year to look at some property.
Perry gets blamed because illegal aliens are leaving other states to move to Texas. Well, that is because there are jobs in Texas.
I hope that folks wake up and see he's our best bet and wouldn't be under attack the way he is if he weren't.
That would be a federal problem. A state doesn't have the resources, or the authority to fix the problem. The state of TX is being left the mess to clean up.
The same sorts of arguments are being used to push Israel into an indefensible position and to claim a right of return.
I'm familiar with how the "right of return" garbage is being pushed by the Arabs. Does Israel allow illegal aliens to live in their country? Does Israel educate these illegal aliens? I'm unfamiliar with this. I would be surprised if Israel, a country surrounded by enemies who have declared their intent to wipe it off the face of the earth, is as naive as we are in dealing with illegal immigrants.
Does this mean they can be Lawless ? Does this mean we must accept their Lawlessness ? Does this mean they are entitled to that which they have not earned ? Or as most commentaries suggest these are they who wish to follow YHvH. Does this mean that they are to obey the Law of the land ?
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
I have no problem enacting or enforcing immigration laws. The problem we have today is the result of over 50 years of having the US Government pretend there are no real immigration laws. The Immigration laws make it a crime to hire illegal aliens and a knowing violation of that law subjects the employer to a $10,000 a day fine. AFAIK, that law has NEVER been enforced except as a political tool to punish companies that don't contribute to the right campaign treasury.
The people who have come here are by and large just people who are trying to make a better life for their family. They have come here largely because the US Government treats immigration laws as if they don't exist. We don't even deport illegal aliens who have committed violent felonies and if we do deport them, we don't have any program in force to make sure they don't come back, and invariably they do.
If we are not going to enforce the laws we have, then we have to deal with the consequences. The consequences include millions and millions of anchor babies and millions and millions of children who are brought here by their illegal alien parents and who know no other country than this one.
If we are not even willing to deport the criminal illegal aliens, then what are we to do with these children? We are not going to deport them. But if Uriel and some of the others had their way, we would not allow them to be treated in the same manner as the anchor babies.
We are admonished as Christians and Jews to treat the sojourners as if they were native born. We have allowed them in. If we had enforced our laws for the last 50 years, they would not have come, but we have effectively invited them in by refusing to enforce the laws we put on the books.
They are here. If the US Government isn't going to enforce the laws, then we as Christians should not hold it against these people. They are effectively here with the implied permission of the President and Congress. So as long as they are here, we should treat them in a manner consistent with the commands of the Bible.
I am convinced that ultimately we are going to have to find some way of legalizing the status of all law abiding illegal aliens. I suspect that every single presidential candidate knows this. Palin went so far as to suggest a "path to Citizenship" for illegal aliens. I would not go that far. I believe that any future legalization should not include a path to citizenship for those who deliberately came here illegally. However, for the children of illegal aliens who were brought here, there should most definitely be a provision for future citizenship. These children know no other country than this. They have never actually been sojourners as they did not make the decision to come here legally or otherwise. They are here and they are not going away and nobody has the political will to deport them to a country they have never been to.
The pastor condemns all Catholics, Jews, and Mormons to burn in the eternal fires of hell . . . and then whines because the condemned don’t like it. Give me a break.
P.S. Only God knows the heart.
The pastor condemns all Catholics, Jews, and Mormons to burn in the eternal fires of hell . . . and then whines because the condemned don’t like it. Give me a break.
P.S. Only God knows the heart.
The pastor condemns all Catholics, Jews, and Mormons to burn in the eternal fires of hell . . . and then whines because the condemned don’t like it. Give me a break.
P.S. Only God knows the heart.
The pastor condemns all Catholics, Jews, and Mormons to burn in the eternal fires of hell . . . and then whines because the condemned don’t like it. Give me a break.
P.S. Only God knows the heart.
The pastor can’t condemn anyone, God can and does. Thank God, He’s God, and none of us.
I think so to. I was surprised at how quickly conservatives jumped on the "tolerance" band wagon.
Not to put you on the spot but if it turned out Romney (a devout Mormon) was the GOP candidate running against Obama (who says he's a Christian), would you vote for Obama or choose not to vote?
If Romney ends up with the nomination I will vote 3rd party or not at all.
Religion is a factor in Romney's case because Mormonism is so outside the mainstream. However, the primary reason I won't vote for Romney is he is not Pro-Life. Also he is not Pro-Family, he supports the homosexual agenda, he is not Pro-2nd Amendment, and he has changed his positions so many times I just don't trust him. So unlike Pastor Jeffress who has said he would vote for him over obama I'm not as tolerant.
“Thank God, He’s God, and none of us.”
Amen. I am reminded of the Bible story about the Disciples wanting Jesus to call down fire on some group. Jesus chastised them - we humans are such frail thinkers.
I’ll stick with Jesus Christ as my Judge and Advocate with the Father.
The holier-than-thou crowd is way off base IMHO.
Lets not "go over the top" with the condemnation stuff.
If you would please answer 2 questions. Is there any other way to the Father than through Jesus Christ? Do the Mormons worship the same Jesus that Christians do?
This is the crux. We let the parents in. Those parents had children while they were here. Those parents brought children with them. We would allow the younger sibling to stay and we would deport the older sibling.
Is that our righteous decision when Leviticus says we are to treat the sojourner as native born? We will keep the one month old baby, but we'll ship out his 3 year old sister?
The "sojourner" is a nomad who came and stayed in and about your country. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were examples of sojourners. They were not natives of that land, but the Lord accepted them as a part of it, and expected the inhabitants to be fair with them.
Moses was a sojourner after his flight from Egypt, and he sojourned some 40 years.
We Christians are all sojourners who seek a city whose builder and maker is God.
How do we hope we and our children are received? How are Christians received in the USA and how do we feel about it? How are they received in Iran, and how do Christians feel about their treatment?
YHvH directed Abraham to Canaan. YHvH placed them there. Sojourner is a loaded word: Perhaps I read the WORD differently.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
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