Posted on 10/15/2011 9:50:41 AM PDT by ReformationFan
But this is not what Scripture says. "the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” Christ established his Church that is the foundation of Truth, guided by the Holy Spirit. Why do you deny the clear words of Scripture? These are the words of Christ, not your made up beliefs.
Two other things -
1. You ignore all the questions on your interpretation of ‘Church’ in Scripture in my prior post. Your beliefs are not based in Scripture, but your own made up beliefs. Please, just try to answer the questions asked.
2. how can they justify their claim to have the one and only truth?
With Christ’s own words.
I’ve posted these verses several times, but you continue to ignore them. If your beliefs are not consistent with all of Scripture, they cannot be the Truth. That is why Joseph Smith needed Golden Plates. Scripture contradicted his beliefs, so he needed something else.
“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Mat 6:18
“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16:12-13
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Mat 28:18-20
Fortunately, we have Christ’s promise that heresies will never prevail against the Church. They will arise, endure sometimes for centuries, like Protestantism, but we can be confident in Christ’s promise that the Church will always teach the Truth.
Does the “church” have the power to intercede for forgiveness of sin of an individual member?
Christ gave the power to forgive sins to the Church he established.
“On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” John 20:19-23
Look at the phrase “he breathed on them.” There is only one other place in the Bible where God breathes on man – “the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.” Genesis 2:7 So, from Scripture alone, you can see that something special is going on here. And then look at the next part - “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” Christ is giving certain men the power to forgive sins. The only way they could know if a sin is to be forgiven or retained is to Hear It. At that point Christ instituted, in the Church he created with with his priesthood, the sacrament of Penance, or confession.
I sited them several times, you chose to ignore them.
"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
The Church is the final authority. Clearly defined through Scripture.
Unfortunately, the church doctrine you speak of does not hold fast to or teach the truth; therefore Messiah's promises are not in their doctrine.
Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Messiah promised eternal life for those who keep the commandments. What is so hard to understand about that?
Prov 30:5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. 7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.
Did you intentionally ignore YHVH’s definition of what truth is or do you enjoy obfuscating? While you ponder that, let's take a deeper look into Mt 16:18. One can not define a verse in Scripture unless one knows the meaning to critical words in the passage.
Mt 16:15 “But you,” he said to them, “who do you say I am?” 16 Shim`on Kefa(Peter) answered, “You are the Mashiach, the Son of the living God.” 17 “Shim`on Bar-Yochanan(son of Yochanan),” Yeshua said to him, “how blessed you are! For no human being revealed this to you, no, it was my Father in heaven. 18 I also tell you this: you are Kefa(Peter),” [which means `Rock,’] “and on this rock I will build my Community, and the gates of Sh’ol will not overcome it.
What? The Father revealed the truth to Peter? I guess now we need to define “Rock” using the ONLY bible dictionary they had in the 1st century. What is this rock that the community of YHVH is built on?
Deut 32:1 “Hear, oh heavens, as I speak! Listen, earth, to the words from my mouth! 2 May my teaching fall like rain. May my speech condense like dew, like light rain on blades of grass, or showers on growing plants. 3 “For I will proclaim the name of ADONAI. Come, declare the greatness of our God! 4 The Rock! His work is perfect, for all his ways are just. A trustworthy God who does no wrong, he is righteous and straight. 5 “He is not corrupt; the defect is in his children, a crooked and perverted generation...
31 For their rock is not like our Rock
2 Samuel 22:47 “The LORD lives! Blessed be my Rock! Let God be exalted, The Rock of my salvation!
Psalm 18:46 The LORD lives! Blessed be my Rock! Let the God of my salvation be exalted
Psalm 28:1 To You I will cry, O LORD my Rock: Do not be silent to me, Lest, if You are silent to me, I become like those who go down to the pit
Isaiah 44:8 Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.’”
Isaiah 51:1 “Listen to Me, you who follow after righteousness, You who seek the LORD: Look to the rock from which you were hewn, And to the hole of the pit from which you were dug
yes, the 1st century writers of the Scriptures knew exactly who the “Rock” was and what rock the community was to be built on.
Mt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ 24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand
Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”
Luke 8:13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away
1 Cor 10:1 For, brothers, I don't want you to miss the significance of what happened to our fathers. All of them were guided by the pillar of cloud, and they all passed through the sea, 2 and in connection with the cloud and with the sea they all immersed themselves into Moshe, 3 also they all ate the same food from the Spirit, 4 and they all drank the same drink from the Spirit - for they drank from a Spirit-sent Rock which followed them, and that Rock was the Messiah
Hears & Doers = community on the rock
Hearers but not Doers = community built upon sand
James 1:22 Don't deceive yourselves by only hearing what the Word says, but do it! 23 For whoever hears the Word but doesn't do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror, 24 who looks at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But if a person looks closely into the perfect Torah, which gives freedom, and continues, becoming not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work it requires, then he will be blessed in what he does.
Ps 135:13 ADONAI, your name continues forever, your renown, ADONAI, through all generations. 14 For ADONAI will vindicate his people, he will take pity on his servants. 15 The idols of the nations are mere silver and gold, made by human hands. 16 They have mouths, but they can't speak; they have eyes, but they can't see; 17 they have ears, but they can't listen; and they have no breath in their mouths; 18 The people who make them will become like them, along with everyone who trusts in them
And YHVH will end with the one that is so blatantly obvious
Ez 3:1 He said to me, "Human being, eat what you see in front of you; eat this scroll. Then go and speak to the house of Isra'el." 2 So I opened my mouth, and he gave me the scroll to eat, 3 as he said, "Human being, eat this scroll I am giving you; fill your insides with it." When I ate it, it tasted as sweet as honey. 4 "Human being," he said to me, "go to the house of Isra'el, and speak my words to them. 5 For you are not being sent to a people with a difficult language and unintelligible speech, but to the house of Isra'el - 6 not to many peoples with difficult languages and unintelligible speech, whose words you can't understand when you hear them. Without doubt, if I sent you to them, they would listen to you. 7 But the house of Isra'el will not be willing to listen to you, because they aren't willing to listen to me; since all the house of Isra'el are obstinate and hardhearted. 8 However, I am making you as defiant and obstinate as they are. 9 Yes, I am making your resoluteness harder than flint, as hard as a diamond. So don't be afraid of them or depressed by how they look at you, because they are a rebellious house." 10 Then he said to me, "Human being, receive in your heart and hear with your ears all my words that I speak to you. 11 Then go to the exiles, to your countrymen; and speak to them. Tell them, 'Here is what Adonai ELOHIM, says,' whether they listen or not."
You do realize that this prophesy pertains to today don't you? The only scroll in from of him was the "TORAH"! Are you listening?
lets go back to post 163 Does the “church” have the power to intercede for forgiveness of sin of an individual member?
I answerd your question with Scripture. Do you accept that answer? If not, Why not?
I'm speechless!
What is out of context? What does that scripture mean if not granting the priesthood of Christ’s Church the power to forgive sins?
That's your opinion and I am at peace knowing that I am not the one who is going to have to stand in front of Messiah and justify it. For if it is true, then he served no purpose. You should have continued on reading in Ch 15
John 15:1 “I am the real vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 Every branch which is part of me but fails to bear fruit, he cuts off; and every branch that does bear fruit, he prunes, so that it may bear more fruit. 3 Right now, because of the word which I have spoken to you, you are pruned. 4 Stay united with me, as I will with you — for just as the branch can't put forth fruit by itself apart from the vine, so you can't bear fruit apart from me. 5 “I am the vine and you are the branches. Those who stay united with me, and I with them, are the ones who bear much fruit; because apart from me you can't do a thing. 6 Unless a person remains united with me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up. Such branches are gathered and thrown into the fire, where they are burned up. 7 “If you remain united with me, and my words with you, then ask whatever you want, and it will happen for you. 8 This is how my Father is glorified — in your bearing much fruit; this is how you will prove to be my talmidim. 9 “Just as my Father has loved me, I too have loved you; so stay in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will stay in my love — just as I have kept my Father's commands and stay in his love. 11 I have said this to you so that my joy may be in you, and your joy be complete. 12 “This is my command: that you keep on loving each other just as I have loved you. 13 No one has greater love than a person who lays down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends, if you do what I command you. 15 I no longer call you slaves, because a slave doesn't know what his master is about; but I have called you friends, because everything I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, I chose you; and I have commissioned you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last; so that whatever you ask from the Father in my name he may give you. 17 This is what I command you: keep loving each other! 18 “If the world hates you, understand that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, the world would have loved its own. But because you do not belong to the world — on the contrary, I have picked you out of the world — therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you, `A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you too; if they kept my word, they will keep yours too. 21 But they will do all this to you on my account, because they don't know the One who sent me. 22 “If I had not come and spoken to them, they wouldn't be guilty of sin; but now, they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father also. 24 If I had not done in their presence works which no one else ever did, they would not be guilty of sin; but now, they have seen them and have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this has happened in order to fulfill the words in their Torah which read, `They hated me for no reason at all.’ 26 “When the Counselor comes, whom I will send you from the Father — the Spirit of Truth, who keeps going out from the Father — he will testify on my behalf. 27 And you testify too, because you have been with me from the outset.
Forgiveness of sin comes through no man, but we are to forgive & ask for forgiveness when we speak & do wrong and that is the message Yah’shua was giving. The message of what it means to love one another as brethren of the house of YHVH.
In order for one to know the answer to that question, one has to know what the “Melchizedek Priesthood” is and where it is located. Do you know what & where it is?
Easy. It is in the Church established by Christ.
I think you need to read the front of the book, specifically Genesis. For one thing, you never stated where it is located. That aside for now, I do need to immediately correct you on who established the Melchizedek Priesthood...
it was not established by Yah’shua in the 1st century
Thus we are back to the front of the book. If one does not study the scriptures in Hebrew along side the English, they do not see that in Hebrew Melchizedek is spelled YHVH. Therefore, one is going to surely misinterpret the Word of YHVH by saying continually corrupted carnal man has power over forgiveness of sin.
The Melchizedek Priesthood - the Bread and Wine of the Eucharist.
no Problem.
But let's go back to post 163. Why do you not accept the clear words of Scripture?
That's funny coming from a religious doctrine that admits it is not according to Scripture. Well that and the fact that bread & wine have absolutely noting to do with forgiveness & salvation.
RC doctrine neither supports or even attempts to follow the Melchizedek Priesthood which is the blue print for the earthly Levitical Priesthood. Now I know they use the book of Hebrews to support their doctrine however, in Hebrews 8:7, the word covenant is not in the original Greek text. Going back to verse 4 for context, what does verse 7 mean when one reads it according to its original form before Roman Catholicism, who had control over the translations, got their dirty, greedy hands on it
4 Now if he were on earth, he wouldn't be a cohen(Priest) at all, since there already are cohanim offering the gifts required by the Torah. 5 But what they are serving is only a copy and shadow of the heavenly original; for when Moshe was about to erect the Tent, God warned him, “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern you were shown on the mountain.” 6 But now the work Yeshua has been given to do is far superior to theirs, just as the covenant he mediates is better. For this covenant has been given as Torah on the basis of better promises. 7 Indeed, if the first had not given ground for faultfinding, there would have been no need for a second one.
Hebrews is about the Priesthood above. The Aaronic(Levitical) Priesthood was established by Moshe on earth according to Melchizedek Priesthood of the Kingdom of the Father in Heaven. Man screwed it up, so YHVH took over and ordained a new High Priest that will live forever.
The Melchizedek Priesthood has been from the beginning and will continue to live forever having all authority over forgiveness of sin. Or did you think Adam & Eve knew to teach their children about sacrifices to YHVH out of some carnal revelation they had centuries before the Levitical Priesthood was established on earth?
Gen 14 Melchizedek...priest of God Most High
Hebrews 5:6 As He also says in another place: “ You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek”
is a quote from
Psalm 110:4 The LORD has sworn And will not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.”
The fact that you haven't even opened the bible to read & study the origins of the Melchizedek Priesthood, but are content to take all your talking points from RC doctrine that didn't exist in the 1st century let alone before the beginning of all creation, is my cue to bid you farewell & God bless.
You are so wrong. Christ is prefigured in Melchizedek. The offering of bread and wine is the bread and wine of the Eucharist.
But lets gets back to post 163. Why do you not accept the clear words of Scripture?
First, I know these conversations are challenging. The bottom line is that we are all seeking the Truth, and we believe we have the truth. I look to these sorts of conversations to challenge beliefs and have my beliefs challenged. Makes us all stronger. I do try to keep all of my questions and arguments in Scripture.
Paul wrote to Timothy -"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus." 2 Tim 3:14-15
This was written to Timothy, and Timothy was born in 17 AD Therefore, the Scripture Timothy knew from infancy and what Paul is referring to is The Old Testament. The New Testament wasn't written at the time of Timothy’s infancy. Paul was telling Timothy to become convinced that Christ was the Savior through Scripture.
All that said, bread and wine has everything to do with forgivness and salvation. Christ died to forgive our sins. He established His Church, established his priesthood in the order of Melchizedek that consecrates the bread and wine that becomes the literal Body and Blood of Christ. When Christ says "This is My Body" we don't need to debate what the meaning of the the 'is' is.
All in the clear and plain words of Scripture, for those who care to open their hearts and mind.
Exactly, the only Scriptures (Word) that was taught by Yah’shua, his disciples & the Apostles was the Tanakh(Gen-Malachi)and the gospels accordingly were the Torah(5 books of Moses). If Yah’shua had taught anything other and started a new religion, why did he still practice Sabbath, Passover, Yom Kippur, Hanukkah when at the time the dates for x-mas & easter had been celebrated in the pagan religions since the time of Sodom & Gomorrah?
Why did Yah’shua keep steadfast to his Father's Torah commandments, instructions & his Father's Holy appointed times?
How could he have taught one thing while practicing another if he only spoke his Father's words?
How could the lamb have remained unblemished & fit for redemption of sin if he had strayed one iota from his Father's instructions & was full of sin himself?
The fact is, he repeatedly said “follow in my footsteps”.
Mt 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled
Well, we are still here on earth so not all has been fulfilled. Also, if Torah is gone, why do we have laws against things that are no longer considered “sin”? How can anyone be judged by YHVH or any religious denomination be judged for their doctrine if there is no sin to be judged? If Yah’shua took it with him then we are completely, 100%, under the law of man therefore this discussion is pretty much irrelevant.
I had a very informative study today. In the original Hebrew text of Gen 1:1 there are 7 words, but only 6 were translated. I have known this for a long time but what I didn't know is that the missing word also appears over 600 times in the Hebrew/Aramaic Bible but was not translated in the Greek or English.
Studying my English bible alongside the Greek & Hebrew has been an awesome journey. I never knew how much I had missed out on. The entire prophesy of Yah’shua the Messiah is all summed up in the Paleo Hebrew text of Gen 1:1 that the “Memra” spoke to Moses. The summary is then repeated in the order of the generations of Adam in Gen 4.
Studying the Scriptures by taking YHVH’s Word back to its pure mountaintop form is by far the most wonderful & amazing experience any of HIS children could experience. I'm done drinking from the filth at the end of the river that leaves a muddy & murky mess where it joins with the ocean. I'm sticking to the pure mountaintop spring water which is the "Memra".
Gen 4:26 ...is when people began to call on the name of YHVH...but when one takes it back to its mountaintop form it says...is when people called out profaning the name of YHVH.
I encourage you to study independently as I have lest you be caught off guard like a "thief in the night". God Bless
Unless one knows the order of the Passover Feast, one will make of it what one wants after pagan traditions that had been since the time of Sodom & Gomorrah. Yah’shua told the disciples that he would not be eating the Passover and thus the Passover remembrance of the exodus out of Egypt was given deeper meaning as Yah’shua has always been the “Light” that lights ones path since day one.
The Son Of God is mentioned over and over again in The New Testament. The Father called him “beloved Son” Matt:3-17, Jesus said he was “The Son Of The Blessed” Mrk 14-61,62 Over and over again he is acknowledged to be “The Son of God. Yes, he does say once, “If you have seen me you have seen The Father”. We used to use the expression, “he is the spitting image of his father. John 5:19 “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth The Father do”
The Savior constantly prayed to The Father. What was the purpose of that? The scriptues are clear the Father, Son,and Holy Ghost are three separate beings working in harmony together.
The Son Of God is mentioned over and over again in The New Testament. The Father called him “beloved Son” Matt:3-17, Jesus said he was “The Son Of The Blessed” Mrk 14-61,62 Over and over again he is acknowledged to be “The Son of God. Yes, he does say once, “If you have seen me you have seen The Father”. We used to use the expression, “he is the spitting image of his father. John 5:19 “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth The Father do”
The Savior constantly prayed to The Father. What was the purpose of that? The scriptues are clear the Father, Son,and Holy Ghost are three separate beings working in harmony together.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.