I guess that this is another part.
Posted on 07/08/2011 1:44:03 PM PDT by Colofornian
Shhh!!! We don't want to take credit for the NIV...
Shhh!!! We don't want to take credit for the NIV...
Foundational point #1 - dealing with Greek text here and the concept that there is only ONE God (Theos) in all existance.
Foundational point #2 - standard Trinitarian blessing invoked here
Specifics -
[She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God,
Common Trinitarian greeting. Note ONLY one God, not three gods.
and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King,
Remember - only ONE God, yet Jesus is addressed as God.
and understand for what reason God, though invisible, manifested Himself to the prophets
Go back to your post Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets - an inference to the Holy Spirit being God as well. BTW an 'invisible' God - not one with flesh and bone.
Fundamental components of the Trinity - One God expressed in three Persons.
Do you have a link to where Irenaeus supports the Trinity?
I've just shown to you from the passage you cited the support of the Trinitarian doctrine.
In On Apostolic Preaching 2:1:47 Irenaeus writes: "“the Father is Lord and the Son is Lord, and the Father is God and the Son is God, since he who is born of God is God, and in this way, according to His being and power and essence, one God is demonstrated: but according to the economy of our salvation, there is both Father and Son, according to His being and power essence one God is demonstrated;"
That statement is clearly trinitarian.
Irenaeus distinguishes the Son and the Holy Spirit from created beings when he says, “The Word, namely the Son, was always with the Father; and that Wisdom also, which is the Spirit, was present with Him, anterior to all creation....There is therefore one God, who by the Word and Wisdom created and arranged all things.” (Against Heresies 4:20:3) - thus they were never created as according to mormon doctrine.
Also
"Proofs From The Apostolic Writings, That Jesus Christ Was One And The Same, The Only Begotten Son Of God, Perfect God And Perfect Man." (Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 16, Chapter Title)
[in reference to Jesus] "For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself,...Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man." (Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 19, section 2)
"God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us, giving us the token of the Virgin." (Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 21, section 1)
"Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spake to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers." (Against Heresies, Book IV, ch. 5, section 2)
Everything there solidly supports the definition of the Trinity (a title referenced by Theophilus of Antioch at about the same time as Irenaeus - in a context that indicates that the use was familiar - not a novel or new term)
Well, amen to that 'zilla!
What did you think of Irenaeus’ writings? [1010RD, earlier post]
Irenaeus from the link you cited: ...there shall be various mansions for the saints...there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, in which the new man shall remain [continually], always holding fresh converse with God...the last will inhabit THE CITY; and that was on this account the Lord declared, In My Father's house are many mansions. John 14:2
Hmmm...1010, do you see the immediate contradiction -- if Irenaues was the equivalent of a "Mormon bishop," that is? Yes? No?
In Mormon theology, who are the ONLY ones who will be given the privilege of "[continually] always holding fresh converse with God."
* Non-Mormons? (Nope)
* Single never-married Mormons -- even if they have a temple recommend? (Nope)
* Mormons who lack a temple rec? (Nope)
* Mormons who perhaps hold a temple rec now, but for current or future financial reasons will lag on their tithing? (Nope)
* How about young Mormons who die before they can land a marriage partner -- and nobody endows them with a post-death marital partner? (Nope)
Well, if...
...they are not going to be able to converse continually with God...
...as this mansion isn't going to span three worlds as "My Father's house" is situated in the celestial kingdom...
...note too, that Irenaeus id's this mansion to be in a specific CITY...
...then pray tell us, 1010, why do Mormons keep using John 14:2 as some sort of justification that three glories & three worlds exist?
Remember, Irenaeus himself went on to cite John 14:2 -- My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
Surely, Mormons have to concede that what is wrong with John 14:2 from a Mormon perspective -- if we're talking about the salvation of all God's children, that is -- is the very problem rooted in Mormon "scripture":
To stress how this is a problem, read what Smith clearly taught in D&C 76:98: "for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial WORLD."
1010 if stars were inhabited, yes, you could be a citizen on one star & live on another; likewise, if your citizenship is in this world & our planet found another way to inhabit a second world, that, too is congruent.
But Mormon theology CLEARLY teaches that the "telestial world" (D&C 76:98) is a distinct world from the celestial world; and that the celestial world is the ONLY world upon which Heavenly Father resides and will continue to reside! In contrast, Irenaeus says this "house" -- this "mansion" -- is tied to a specific CITY (not multiple worlds).
To the Mormon, "my father's House" -- what Jesus said in John 14:2 -- has to be located in the celestial world. Well, gee, 1010. That's a BIG prob for the telestials & terrestials who won't be part of "My Father's house" in those other two worlds, won't it be? Mormon leaders have shut out non-Mormons, single never-married Mormons, children-who-die young Mormons, less-than-tithing Mormons, non-temple-recommended Mormons, etc. from "My father's house."
x beach placemarker
Irenaeus linkage you linked to in post #155: 2. [They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city...
Other than the "exercise" that Irenaeus first points to is NOT the labor/good deeds of man -- but rather God's "exercise of grace," what else can we glean from Irenaeus' comments here?
First of all, where does Jesus give the parable about the 30/60/100-fold production?
* 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.” (Matt. 13:23)
* 20 Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown.” (Mark 4:20)
What is the emphasis YOU, 1010, apparently give to all of this? My discernment tells me you focus HEAVILY on the producers who are people.
But what is the seed that grows it all in these two passages? God's Word. The producers are merely the receptive (or less receptive) soil. WE are that soil. Should the soil get the glory for what it produces?
Doesn't the seed receive the credit?
Or how about the farmer (who is God in this word pix)?
Or how about the water provided -- and the sunshine?
No sun, no water, no farmer, no seed...and all you'd have 1010 is a dust bowl headin' for a legacy as a future desert. Good works is like good receptive soil. A farmer can operate, given seed, water, and sun, in good receptive soil. But God gives the increase!
What might be another parable Jesus told that would be relevant here?
17 “‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’ 18 “The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’ 19 “His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’ (Luke 19:17-19)
I can hear it now. 1010RD reads Irenaues' references of Matthew 13/Mark 4...reads the 30/60/100 fold & sees "degrees" of production & degrees of producers & thinks, "Yup...that fits 'degrees of glory' all arranged according to the level of production by these producers."
Or, he might look at Luke 19:17-19 and conclude: "Yup...that fits, too...one steward gets a greater degree of glory -- mayor of 10 cities...vs. another who gets to be a mayor of 5 cities as his personal RE-WARD."
What's the problem, though, with this Mormon mentality?
Look at Luke 19:13: 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’
Whose $ is it that has been invested? (A man of noble birth who was being appointed king -- Luke 19:12) IOW -- Jesus' $ -- or minas.
Did they own the $ -- even after Jesus gave it to them? (No; this man expected a ROI -- a return-on-investment)
Does a steward REALLY own anything? (No; that is why they are called 'stewards'; they are simply financial SERVANTS).
Does a servant get glory for what he does? No. He's only doing what the Master has told him to do. (Luke 17:10). If He told them to "invest" it -- as in this case -- is that some glory-hound "good work" deserving of accolades & honors? Or is that just being full of faith -- which is what those who are faithful do as they exercise faith?
All Jesus has said -- in Matt 13/Mark 4 -- is that if you're receptive -- and not resistant -- God will accomplish much production in your lives. And if you're a faithful steward of His gifts -- as it says in Luke 19, He will get a return of investment. HIS $ & gifts will bring in more. Just don't be faithless and screw that up.
Irenaeus, I believe, would add:
* "allow His grace to be exercised" in your life;
* persevere in His love -- as what trusting relational beings are to do in response to God's love;
& oh, and when he tells you to invest, 'tis a good idea to comply...even when your pride isn't fed by the false promise of becoming a future god or grown-up god!
Eating anti Mormons for lunch and trolling them are only part of my divine given talents.
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First, admitting to trolling and being a troll will get you kicked of this site quickly.
Second, this is one of your “divine given talents”?!?! Excuse me while I laugh...
Bwwaaahhhhahaaaa, lolol, roflmao, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah, oooohhhhh, erm, giggle, lololololololololl, heheheheheheheheheheheh, hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, oh boy!, bwwwahahhhhhahahah, hahahahahah, gasp, Bwwaaahhhhahaaaa, lolol, roflmao, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah, oooohhhhh, erm, giggle, lololololololololl, heheheheheheheheheheheh, hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, oh boy!, bwwwahahhhhhahahah, hahahahahah, Bwwaaahhhhahaaaa, lolol, roflmao, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah, oooohhhhh, erm, giggle, lololololololololl, heheheheheheheheheheheh, hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, oh boy!, bwwwahahhhhhahahah, hahahahahah, Bwwaaahhhhahaaaa, lolol, roflmao, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah, oooohhhhh, erm, giggle, lololololololololl, heheheheheheheheheheheh, hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, oh boy!, bwwwahahhhhhahahah, hahahahahah,
if this is your best...don’t give up your day job!
I guess that this is another part.
The proof comes from the Spirit. The burden of proof is on the individual in question of the validity of Mormonism.
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How do you know you are not being lied to? How do you know that what you think is the Spirit isn’t a demon?
Because Moroni 10:4 tells you? Moroni’s promise is a circular argument that leads to self fulfilment, not to the truth.
And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
Now, lets analyze this, shall we?
First missionaries tell you what to experience usually (burning in the bosom) but aside from that, if you pray and don’t receive an answer that it is ‘true’ then the fault is YOURS.
According to the verse, if you don’t recieve an answer in the affirmative then...
You aren’t sincere...
you don’t have real intent...
or you don’t have faith in Christ.
LDS use this SAME method to determine ALL truth. So what people do, is if they don’t get then answer it is true then they keep praying, keep going back until they convince themselves it IS true.
That is not how to measure truth. That is putting feelings before facts.
I could walk away from my LDS faith into the world, or I could work on gaining my testimony back. I chose the latter.
BTW if I did leave the LDS faith, I would not go to any other Christian church because they don’t offer me anything that the Mormons cannot.
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You assume there were only 2 choices, there is a third, turning to the Christ of the Bible.
And Christian churches can ofter much more than the LDS ever can, they can offer you a life in Christ. And the Christ of the Bible can offer you something Mormonism NEVER can....salvation.
I’ve lived in Utah, I know many Mormons if they are active, they are blind followers of the ‘brethren’.
You left the church. Wonderful. Go thy way! Make peace with God. Only Jesus Christ will judge my Christianity, not anyone else.
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I did make peace with God, in Christ and outside Mormonism.
I’m not going away, I am called to tell Mormons the truth about their cult and the lies the ‘brethren’ pass off. I am called to warn them they are headed for Hell.
The judgement is up to the individual, and the work is also the same
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Actually, it isn’t. Ever hear of ‘peer review’?? Peer review of Nibley, academically, says he is a fraud.
I have the education and background to actually understand and verify his sources. He may turn a good phrase but he is a plagiarist and not a scholar.
“The glory of God is intelligence” is a well know Mormon source. Sadly, most LDS don’t use their brains at all, at least not when it comes to Mormonism.
The glory of God is the manifestation and revelation of His love. Jesus Christ.
Christian would NEVER EVER say something like “The glory of God is intelligence” because that is taking away glory from God and putting it on man.
If it is a fruitcake, question it and really look at it with a fine lense.
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Then why are you still Mormon?
Mormonism is fruitcake theology on steroids.
Thank the Lord you left the LDS Church.
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I do every single day. I am so grateful to be freed of that arrogant, evil cult and saved through grace alone by my faith (no works needed).
I’ll go to Mormon Hell then if I am wrong. Who are you to tell me what my relationship with God is. No wonder Jesus got very annoyed with Pharisees. You sound like one. Read the NT if you want to know exactly what I am talking about. The Whole Damn NT, not just selections.
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SHOW ME THE LIES. I can document every single thing I say about Mormons USING MORMON SOURCES.
Second, Mormons don’t have a Hell. They only have outerdarkness. If you are wrong, then you will go to a very real Christian Hell. Pascal’s wager does not apply to Mormons vs. Christians. If God does not exist at all, then it doesn’t matter, but if God does exist, if the Bible is true, then salvation is only by grace through faith and not found in Mormonism at all. The false Christ of Mormonism won’t save you, but will send you to a very real, very hot Hell for eternity.
Oh, BTW, I have read the NT (BA Biblical Studies). In fact I read both the Old Testament and New Testament in their entireties EVERY SINGLE YEAR (one year bibles are great). In addition, I read much of it again throughout the year looking things up, witnessing, preparing lessons and devotionals. Never just selections like the LDS do.
There is NOTHING in the NT (even James) that says we are saved by works. It is always by faith alone.
I’m not a pharisee, in fact I am not legalistic at all (which was Jesus’ complaint about the Pharisees - if you read the Bible you would know that).
Mormons are more patriotic than many of our counterparts.
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Hogwash.
Show me the lies and any ‘half wit’ truths. Go ahead, point them out.
Last time I checked my KJV, NIV NKJV, it was the same Jesus that I worship.
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Epic fail. A close reading of the NT, even in English, shows that the Jesus of the Bible is not the Mormon Jesus at all.
The Jesus of the Bible isn’t a
...created being
...being that had to earn his godhood
...a non-eternal ‘sprit child’ who was in compeition with Lucifer to be ‘savior’
...one of 3 gods (just for this world)
...product of sexual relations with God the Father and Mary
...god who paid for sin (acutally a loan) in the Garden rather than on the Cross
...isn’t a mass murderer
...doesn’t share his status as High Priest with ANYONE.
The Mormon Jesus is all of those things. I can source all of that.
If facts were the way to faith, why doesn’t God simply appear to each of us, expressing the ‘fact’ that he exists and we are to worship him?
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He does, through His creation, and through His word.
God never wants blind faith or reliance on feelings. That is unbiblical.
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